You primary stat should never be lower than 18

[Saeviomagy]

I think this debate is primarily being driven by confusion on what optimal means. So far it seems to mean "best at making use of his class powers that require attack rolls".

Often that also means that you're best at fulfilling your classes role.

Usually it means that you'll be slightly worse at fulfilling other roles. The controller gets hit harder and has less hitpoints, and goes later in the round. The striker misses with OAs. The defender is easy to hit with non-ac attacks, and is surprised almost every time (meaning he doesn't fulfill his role for the first round of combat).

Usually there's out-of-combat penalties too. Low charisma severely limits contribution to social challenges etc.

So - optimal is probably not the word to be using unless we identify the scenarios he is optimal for. And if we're going to set the scenario as "playing the game", then optimal has to take a lot more into account than "he hits a lot".

 

[JohnSnow]

How does a 20 INT wizard have a low Reflex defense?

He's playing 3e.

Or I was. In my head.

The 20 INT Fourth Edition Wizard maybe has low Fort and Will defenses, rather than Fort and Ref.

Probably neither. A perfectly viable 20 INT wizard build is the following:

Eladrin Wizard
Str 8 (-1)
Con 12 (+1)
Dex 13 (+1)
Int 20 (+5)
Wis 13 (+1)
Cha 10 (+0)

He's got a +5 Int bonus. Alternatively, for a tiefling, you could drop dex to 11 and boost charisma to 10. Or just swap Str and Cha. And he's equally viable with any implement.

Now, is the 20 Int worth it? I don't know. Hard to say. That's 4 points that could have been used to improve BOTH dexterity and wisdom to 14 (+2). Or you could juggle things a little and get a 14 Constitution.

Now, that 14 Dex may seem redundant, since our wizard uses Int to attack, but for a Wand of Accuracy user, that's an extra +2 to hit once per encounter when you really need it. And that's nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Diirk]

Now, is the 20 Int worth it? I don't know. Hard to say. That's 4 points that could have been used to improve BOTH dexterity and wisdom to 14 (+2). Or you could juggle things a little and get a 14 Constitution.

Now, that 14 Dex may seem redundant, since our wizard uses Int to attack, but for a Wand of Accuracy user, that's an extra +2 to hit once per encounter when you really need it. And that's nothing to sneeze at.

Right, but 20 int 13 dex vs 18 int 14 dex... while your wand may give you +2 to hit once per encounter instead of +1, you're also losing out on +1 hit/damage on EVERY attack, as well as losing 1 reflex defense and AC. Totally not worth it.

 

[Regicide]

There's no "replacing" the +1 you could have gotten with a high strength score with a +1 from another source in 3e. This is because the +1 from the other source is already assumed to be part of the system.

You should reread my post, you've completely missed what I said. The fact that a suboptimal character without outside buffs who could easily have more +s was hitting all on 2+ except the last roll completely repudiates your point.

3.5E is based on the LAST swing having about as much chance landing as the FIRST swing does in 4E. The "curve" you keep trying to imagine as existing, doesn't. You can't compare a stat score in 3E to 4E because they're different.

In a challenging fight in 4E if someone was naive enough, like a first time player, to take a score of 12 they could easily be in the position of needing a 17 to 20 to hit and being nearly useless vs. someone with a 20 in a stat needing 13+ and while not hitting often, might actually pull through.

In 3E you can get by with a 12 STR. Sure it's better to have more, but you're not going to be making the character next to useless in a tough fight.

 

[toxicspirit]

This is an interesting thread.

Speaking of the viability of characters with a stat of 20, would you think this would qualify, or does it have any glaring weaknesses that I haven't noticed?

Elven Archer Ranger
Str: 10
Con: 11
Dex: 20
Int: 8
Wis: 16
Cha: 10

 

[Nifft]

I am honestly not sure now why you would need to number crunch the obvious that a higher number is better than a lower one, which should go without saying, but the question is to what extent that 18 necessary for combat even including those that are not exceptional cases?

Well, you may notice how I'm not recommending a 20 in your attack stat? That's because it's almost always too expensive. It is a +1 to attack and damage, but the cost in terms of other stats is too high.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Torchlyte]

I'm a fan of starting with odd numbers. Observe:

Dragonborn Strength Paladin
Str: 17 19
Con: 11
Dex: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 14 16
Cha: 14

Boost Str and Wis each level, then boost Con and Wis at level 28.

Dragonborn Strength Paladin
Str: 18 20
Con: 11
Dex: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 14 16
Cha: 10

So for +1 Str Mod you're giving up +1 Con and +2 Cha. The Paladin gets a lot of perks from Cha...

 

[Family]

I have to agree, I just did up 6 optimized PC designed to work as a group...they all had a 20 (that included a racial bonus). And all but one of my playgroup has 18 or 20's too.

If I ever need to incapacitate them I plan to take most of them out with some poision darts (4 have a 10 for their fort defence) and then reflex attack the "tough guys" (who both have 10's for their reflex defence).

Waking up in a unknown cell can be fun at times.

 

[Ahglock]

I'm not sure I'd go for a 18 in most cases. I wont deny its probably more effective, but in most case when I make a character I prefer thematically a more even spread. And I do not think the hit in effectiveness will be particularly large.

For wizards, I'd want a 20. This goes back to 1st edition where if I ever rolled a 18, I was like woot a wizard. I don't know why but the max spell level limit tied to int always kept me away if my int was not 18. Now its gone, but if I were to play a wizard instead of GM I'd still want max int.

My preferred Wizard stats before racial mods:

Str 8
Dex 10
Con 10
Int 18
Wis 13
chr 13

Dropping chr to 12 so the wizard would have a 13 when it hits the paragon tier is probably "better". But I don't like it.

Edit to add in the case of a Tiefling, I'd drop the chr to 10 or 11 and boost con to 12 or 13. You would still get spell focus, and would be a bit healthier.

Double edit: Eladrin I would drop the chr to 12, raise the dex to 11, modified 13 and by th epic tief have a 15 dex for the cool dex feats.

 

[Ahglock]

This is an interesting thread.

Speaking of the viability of characters with a stat of 20, would you think this would qualify, or does it have any glaring weaknesses that I haven't noticed?

Elven Archer Ranger
Str: 10
Con: 11
Dex: 20
Int: 8
Wis: 16
Cha: 10

It hurts my soul to see a 8 Int ranger/archer, but yeah it is probably the best dump stat for the archer build. And yeah, that would likely whoop butt.