You primary stat should never be lower than 18

[Tony Vargas]

Every little '+' helps

It's true that attack bonuses are more critical than ever in 4e. Most powers work only if you hit, and many work much better if you hit. Utilities are about the only powers that don't require an attack roll, at all.

In 3e, there were plenty of ways to boost your AB as you progressed - you could take feats, acquire items, boost your stats, and self-buff. These myriad bonuses could all be kept more or less under your control - 'native' to the build, as it were.

4e isn't like that. There are still lots of bonuses out there, but the more stackable ones are out of your 'control.' Your allies can give you bonuses, and not just by flanking. Feats, features, and powers that give stacking bonuses tend to be situational.

Still, you can stack up a lot of bonuses. Say your 'brutal scoundrel' rogue skimped and has only a 16 DEX so he could also afford a higher STR. As a rogue with a dagger, he's still at +7 to hit at first level, +9 with combat advantage, and +2d6+STR with a sneak attack. But, that's only the begining. If he's human, he can use an Action Point (and the Action Surge Feat) when he throws down a dailly power, that's a +3. If there's a tactical warlord in his party it's probably another +1. If the Cleric just Righteous branded the victim, that's another +3 (if he's also not an optimal-18 kinda build). Our first level rogue is striking with a +16 - his daily /is/ going to hit. His at-wills may be hitting on an 11 instead of 10 when he hasn't got combat advantage, but that's a minor disapointement.

To an extent, 3e was a game where encounters could be won or lost before initiative was rolled - based on the builds and pre-buffs the advesaries brought to the fight. In 4e, what happens durring an encounter is aparently going to be as or more important than what decisions were made at chargen.

 

[Spatula]

Hm, the talk of starting with a 17 has prompted the thought of a dwarven TWF ranger (screw stereotypes!):
STR 17 (17, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 array)
CON 14
DEX 14
INT 10
WIS 15
CHA 8
Using battleaxes and warhammers, and taking chainmail & scale armor proficiencies (since they don't slow the dwarf any further, allowing you to not have to worry about bumping DEX for AC). You could dump DEX too, if you absolutely had to have an 18, but it's useful for Reflex and Initiative. You basically end up with a pretty well-rounded TWF fighter.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

I haven't crunched any numbers, but just looking at it logically, is there any reason to ever have less than at least an 18 in your primary stat? In most cases it seems the +1 to attack, +1 to damage, and +1 to one save far outweighs the more limited benefits of spreading your stats out. You might be slightly more survivable, but you'll hit less often, and if you hit less often, enemies die slower, allies get buffed less, etc.

So would it be correct to say the only time you should NOT put an 18 in your primary stat is if you're doing some weird multi-classing?

The best reason I could come up with would be Skill Challenges. There have been plenty of threads commenting on the difficulty of completing a skill challenge, when run with the suggested DC's from page 42 of the DMG. Whether you think the numbers given make the system broken or not is best left to another thread (ie: I do not want to de-rail this thread). But Skill challenges are tough, and there is not guarantee that you will be handed challenges that use your chosen primary stat. Based on the chart on page 18 of the PHB, if you stack one primary stat, you will at best have +1 in two stats, and +0 or -1 in the rest. That in turn leaves you as much less versatile in a skill challenge.

Now, if you consider that Rituals cost cash, and spell casters are not quite so 'swiss army knife' built, you may conclude that you will want to be as good as you can in a number of different skills that come up.

It might not be a persuasive arguement against pumping a single ability, but it is a valid one.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Afrodyte]

This is an interesting thread.

Speaking of the viability of characters with a stat of 20, would you think this would qualify, or does it have any glaring weaknesses that I haven't noticed?

Elven Archer Ranger
Str: 10
Con: 11
Dex: 20
Int: 8
Wis: 16
Cha: 10

Your Fort save will be kind of weak.

I played around with a few random builds (basically rolled 2d8 of 2 different colors and used one for race and the other for class). I came up with a Dwarf Ranger. Naturally, we have a Two-Blade ranger because the bonuses from Dwarven Weapon Training are sweet in this case. I did his stats like this:

STR 17...Melee attack, Fortitutde, most of the Two-Blade ranger powers, and Athletics skill. A high STR also synergizes well with Dwarven Weapon Training due to the fact that battleaxes are one-handed weapons and the handaxe is a heavy thrown weapon.

CON 11 (13)...Mainly for HP and healing surges, and an increase later on would help more than one in INT or CHA.

DEX 15...Initiative, AC, Reflex, and ranged attack. With light armor and powers that aid ranged combat, I thought this one had to be next. Also, with a high DEX, this character can quickly pick up Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense later on. Also, increasing to 16 at later levels would really help.

INT 10...Toss-up between INT and CHA. These were the 2 stats I would rather not spend points on considering the benefits of prioritizing other stats. Two birds, one stone, and such.

WIS 12 (14)...Will, several ranger powers, Perception skill, Dungeoneering skill, and Nature skill.

CHA 8...Toss-up between CHA and INT.

 

[toxicspirit]

Your Fort save will be kind of weak.

Of course, that's the one big downfall. But there does have to be one, otherwise the build (not necessarily in that order) would be kind of a no-brainer for most classes.

It is basically trading +2 to Fortitude saves and +4 Hit Points for the extra +1 to AC, to-hit rolls, Reflex saves, and to most other archer-ranger-related abilities and skills. To me, although it is a tough call, it seems to be worth the trade off.

 

[Voss]

You can still distribute magic items in such a way as help someone "catch up." It isn't nearly as impressive as 3rd and the +6 stat items but something as simple as who gets first crack at an enhancement bonus can set a character right back on track.

No, you can't, actually. Everybody is supposed to have a +<X> weapon/implement appropriate to their level all the time. So if you fall behind with your stats, thats it- you're behind forever. There simply aren't many ways to compensate for the lost attack bonus, and almost all of them (beyond star pact) depend on someone else giving you the bonus.

@Zardoz- unfortunately, that doesn't work. As long as the party has most of the skills covered, you can maximize your chances of succeeding at any skill challenge with 1 or 2 people. The person with the highest bonus in the appropriate skill(s) can just make all the rolls while everyone else waits for him to succeed or fail. Its sad, but thats what the 'challenge' system encourages.

 

[JohnSnow]

@Zardoz- unfortunately, that doesn't work. As long as the party has most of the skills covered, you can maximize your chances of succeeding at any skill challenge with 1 or 2 people. The person with the highest bonus in the appropriate skill(s) can just make all the rolls while everyone else waits for him to succeed or fail. Its sad, but thats what the 'challenge' system encourages.

Have you read anything other than the PHB?

I suggest you read the section in the DMG on designing skill challenges. Pay particular attention to lines like:

"Whether it's the use of a primary or secondary skill, or whether a character is cooperating to help another character make a check, every character participates in a skill challenge."

Turning it over to the 1 or 2 people with the most chance of succeeding should NOT be an option in a properly designed skill challenge.

If that's what happens, the DM has failed.

 

[chaotix42]

ignore

 

[chaotix42]

The person with the highest bonus in the appropriate skill(s) can just make all the rolls while everyone else waits for him to succeed or fail.

Unless of course the skill challenge has a time limit (a possibility the DMG suggests). I had the PCs chase goblin raiders through their village and after 10 rounds if the skill challenge was not won or lost by successes/failures the little buggers would have escaped.

 

[daddystabz]

Do you think these Dargonborn Paladin stats would be better overall?

Str 15, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 18

I would suffer a bit on Opportunity Attacks though with having a lower Str but I think the higher Cha and Wis would more than pay off.