Your experiences with Creeping Doom

[KarinsDad]

I do not think it unreasonable that multiple swarms could fit in a 10 foot square.

1500 diminutive creatures in a 10 x 10 foot square is 1500 extremely small creatures in 14400 square inches. Let alone the extra surface area on any creature in the space.


But, the spell is pretty lame at that level if one does not allow the Swarms to all go into the same squares.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I don't allow Swarms to overlap, but I do allow larger creatures than Medium get eaten by multiple swarms at once.

Seems to me this is a Sacred Bovine type spell that they made internally consistent rules for the new edition that turned it into a crap spell.

Sho' does look cool when you're facing a small army of weak creatures, though. Druids are generally very very good at depopulating small towns in the wilderness.

--fje

 

[Pielorinho]

A suggested change to the spell that might make it much better: what if the druid could direct the swarms as a free action? That might make it worth casting--I'm not sure.

Daniel

 

[frankthedm]

A suggested change to the spell that might make it much better: what if the druid could direct the swarms as a free action? That might make it worth casting--I'm not sure.

Daniel

Druids already get comp'ed for Creeping doom's nearfing by having some of the best fire attack spells around in the core rules, Flamestrike at 4th and Fireseeds at 6th.

The 1000 point damage of Creeping doom has the same issues as the Infinite Damage Harm. Hit points were lower in previous editions. Doing 100 HP was not that much different from 1000, both killed nearly any character and every monster unless it was struck by only magic weapons. Against a large amount of troops, the bugs could kill 200-250 or so, thought he druid's alignment dictated he had to be careful when sowing that much death, since any variation from neutral alignment cost them thier class.

In 3.0 they tried porting the effect directly and made the same mistake they did with harm. Now only able to kill 70 level 1's [since they gnawed victims to -10] the spell still cheesed those without flight or DR. They may have overcorrected in 3.5, but the druid was comp'ed in many other areas.

 

[Pielorinho]

Druids already get comp'ed for Creeping doom's nearfing by having some of the best fire attack spells around in the core rules, Flamestrike at 4th and Fireseeds at 6th.

Hmm. That's not really how I think about balance. My ideal balance makes all options equally fun--it spreads out the fun rather than concentrating it in a few places. I much prefer a character who casts a different 7th-level spell each day than one who relies of firestorm to do all his seventh-level damage.

A spell that is virtually always inferior to the best spell available of its type may as well not be on the list. A spell that is better in some (reasonably) common circumstances and worse in others is a lot more interesting an option.

Daniel

 

[Legildur]

I agree that interesting spell use should be paramount. My 14th level druid loves the damage and shapeable nature of Firestorm (my DM hates it!), but fire immunity/resistance is reasonably common (as are humanoids with Evasion). The Energy Substitution (acid) feat is looking mighty attractive for 15th level! Regardless, it's difficult to steer away from that one......

 

[frankthedm]

Hmm. That's not really how I think about balance. My ideal balance makes all options equally fun--it spreads out the fun rather than concentrating it in a few places. I much prefer a character who casts a different 7th-level spell each day than one who relies of firestorm to do all his seventh-level damage.

A spell that is virtually always inferior to the best spell available of its type may as well not be on the list. A spell that is better in some (reasonably) common circumstances and worse in others is a lot more interesting an option.

Reviwing the CD spell, I am going to agree with you that Wotc took too much away from Creeping Doom. Though the fact that the swarms can do dexterity damage raises my eyebrows slightly, chances are it won't happen because the fort save only has a 5% of failing, but I've seen folks aim for that stat when fighting large critters since wotc gave most of them 10 dex at best. Maybe trading the dex poison for an extra 1d6 or 2d6 damage from the swarm would be more in line for a 7th level spell. A free action to control the swarms is giving far too precise control, though the bugs should be able to chase foes without eat up valuable actions.

The Creeping doom spell last more than long enough to go through a few battles, some folks like to ignore that because they just want blast spell damage every round from the spell. The spell simply does not do that. it used to be autokill for ground pounders, but thankfully those days are gone.

IMHO letting the bug occupy each others spaces would only be fair if the ate each other alive. The damge output would grind the bugs down by the 5th to 6th swarm. Sure it won't work against critters with DR, but one does not firestorm fire immune creatures either. Conjuration has little business with megadamage spells, 12d6, no SR, No save is fine for a one shot Verminball, but not for 1 minute a level.

CD Also make creatures. Unlike firestorm, it makes living targets a foe may target rather than the caster or his alies.

Would this be better? CD is supposed to clear away mooks. This does so better that firestorm over the duration.

Hunting Doom
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Drd 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)/ 100 ft.; see text
Effect: One swarm per two levels
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
When you utter the spell of creeping doom, you call forth a mass of centipede, rat, or spider swarms (your choice, one swarm per two caster levels, to a maximum of ten swarms at 20th level), which need not appear adjacent to one another.

You may summon the swarms so that they share the area of other creatures. The swarms attack any creatures in their area. If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. The swarms will ignore your allies, though if they happen to be in the swarms path or facing, they are still affected as normal.

You can command the creeping doom to move (a standard action). As a standard action, you can command any number of the swarms within 100 feet of you to move toward any prey within 100 feet of you. You cannot command any swarm to move more than 100 feet away from you unless you choose a single target for all the swarms to pursue.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

You should bear in mind that Creeping Doom is really a corner case of the Swarm rules which are plenty nasty enough already--especially for low-level characters who face the relatively low CR swarms which can only be hurt by area effect damage on a regular basis. The primary goal of interpreting the rules should not be to make Creeping Doom as nasty as it was in 1e, 2e, or 3.0, but rather to keep Swarms balanced and playable (and they already push the boundaries of that--gee, how fun it is to be playing a fighter and swing your improvised weapon torch at a swarm for 1d3 damage while it does 2d6 to you every round and there's nothing you can do about it).

 

[Pielorinho]

The primary goal of interpreting the rules should not be to make Creeping Doom as nasty as it was in 1e, 2e, or 3.0, but rather to keep Swarms balanced and playable (and they already push the boundaries of that--gee, how fun it is to be playing a fighter and swing your improvised weapon torch at a swarm for 1d3 damage while it does 2d6 to you every round and there's nothing you can do about it).

In some ways I agree. However, spells can break rules and modify them, and as I see it, the primary goal of interpreting the spell should be to make the spell playable, not to make the monster playable absent the spell. If the spell never gets cast, it may as well not be in the book; it needs to be good enough that it gets cast.

Daniel