D&D 5E A Proper Ability Score Generation Preference Poll

redrick · Nov 13, 2017

Yardiff said:
I'm an old school grognard person and we rolled using Gary Gaygax suggestions then and now.

1e DMG pg 11 "As AD&D is an ongoing game of fantasy adventuring, it is important to allow participants to generate a viable character of the race and profession which he or she desires. While it is possible to generate some fairly playable characters by rolling 3d6, there is often an extended period of attempts at finding a suitable one due to quirks of the dice. Furthermore, these rather marginal characters tend to have short life expectancy - which tends to discourage new players, as does having to make do with some character of a race and/or class which he or she really can't or won't identify with. Character generation, then, is a serious matter, and it is recommended that the following systems be used."

1e PHB pg 9 "Furthermore, it is usually essential to the character's survival to be exceptional (with a rating of 15 or above) in no fewer than two ability characteristics."

What it really comes down to is what you think is good enough for a 'heroic adventurer', standard array and 27-point buy doesn't work for me. 35+ point buy with an 18 cap and also a max starting stat of 18 would work. 5e is very flexible so higher starting stats can be readily adjusted for.

Interesting, I'd never heard this particular Gygax. So much of the conversation I see positions the "roll 3d6 in a row; live and die by the results" as the most Old Skool method.

Once you factor in the species modifiers, most characters using the standard array are going to have at least two ability scores of 15 or above, so 5e meets that Gary maxim.

I came up playing in the early and mid 90s, so Gygax was less of a direct influence on what we played. I get the sense that the game most of us play today is a very different style of game from the one Gary played at his table. "Survivability" just isn't a major concern; it's more about the strengths (and weaknesses) that tend to give a character a chance to shine at the table.

I'll also add that, in my opinion, weaknesses are way more effective scene stealer than strengths. Sure, whatever, your character always hits because they have a +5 STR at level 1, but my character always falls down the stairs because they have a -3 DEX. Nothing says spotlight like spectacular failure!

Frankie1969 · Nov 13, 2017

Yardiff said:
I'm an old school grognard person and we rolled using Gary Gygax suggestions then and now.

1e PHB pg 9 "Furthermore, it is usually essential to the character's survival to be exceptional (with a rating of 15 or above) in no fewer than two ability characteristics."

What it really comes down to is what you think is good enough for a 'heroic adventurer', standard array and 27-point buy doesn't work for me.

You're completely neglecting that stats worked differently in AD&D compared to 3E & later. An old-school 15 stat gave you a +1 modifier, which is what you get from a 12 in this millennium.

A character with all 14s for stats would be terrible in AD&D, but in 5E that would be entirely playable, actually well above average after a couple ASIs in the primary stat.

Yardiff · Nov 13, 2017

redrick said:
Interesting, I'd never heard this particular Gygax. So much of the conversation I see positions the "roll 3d6 in a row; live and die by the results" as the most Old Skool method.

Once you factor in the species modifiers, most characters using the standard array are going to have at least two ability scores of 15 or above, so 5e meets that Gary maxim.

I came up playing in the early and mid 90s, so Gygax was less of a direct influence on what we played. I get the sense that the game most of us play today is a very different style of game from the one Gary played at his table. "Survivability" just isn't a major concern; it's more about the strengths (and weaknesses) that tend to give a character a chance to shine at the table.

I'll also add that, in my opinion, weaknesses are way more effective scene stealer than strengths. Sure, whatever, your character always hits because they have a +5 STR at level 1, but my character always falls down the stairs because they have a -3 DEX. Nothing says spotlight like spectacular failure!

I agree that weaknesses can be a good character defining hook. What I disagree with is the near requirement that characters have that low stat.

And Gary's maxim was 'at least' 2 15s.

Yardiff · Nov 13, 2017

Frankie1969 said:
You're completely neglecting that stats worked differently in AD&D compared to 3E & later. An old-school 15 stat gave you a +1 modifier, which is what you get from a 12 in this millennium.

A character with all 14s for stats would be terrible in AD&D, but in 5E that would be entirely playable, actually well above average after a couple ASIs in the primary stat.

The shift in bonuses doesn't make that much of difference, earlier editions had lower overall numbers. HD max's were lower 9-11 HD, while now a days 20 is the usual max for HD. 20 dice of falling damage threatened most character with heavy damage or close to deadly damage, while now 20 dice is just hp tax. etc..

You believe an all 14 stat character is a good while I believe its barely fair and will require several ASI to only become a good character.

As I've always said this is my opinion only.

Wulffolk · Nov 13, 2017

smbakeresq said:
What DM doesn't show up with adventures ready to go and then adjust on the fly? You shouldn't be DM if you don't come prepared. A group cant be so odd that it requires complete adjustment, I was trying to think of a really strange group comp but really as along as you have one frontliner and some form of healing you should be able to do something.

First level is a blow through, the xp to get to second level is so low its hard not to advance if you do anything and live. Second isn't much either, but usually we get built out and ready to go and then get through first level.

I have exactly the opposite viewpoint. A good DM comes to session 0 prepared with setting and background information only. He/she should have nothing specific prepared, and never force the group into a pre-planned "adventure" that might have nothing to do with the concepts they create. Players should use that setting information to inspire a group concept and ask questions of the DM to figure out the group's place in the world.

Once that is done the Player's can roll stats and figure out their place in that group. They can use the session to flesh out concepts and create hooks or bonds that give the group a reason to work together and offer the DM an idea of how to shape the setting around the story that the character's were created to tell.

I usually encourage the use of rolling stats (3d6 replace one die with a 4, for scores between 6-16), but if a player is strongly attached to a concept that the dice do not favor I allow them to assign Ability scores to fit the concept. Anybody immature enough to automatically choose all 18's or something similar is a player that is more worried about "winning the game" or hogging the spotlight. My games tend to be more about the story and the role-playing than stats and rolls, so that player probably wouldn't have as much fun with their munchkin in my game as they would expect in another game.

I agree with most of the other points you have made, just not the ones about getting started immediately and blowing through the early levels.

cbwjm · Nov 13, 2017

I'd have been happy with all 14s in an edition but 3e onwards especially that is a good start. I have +2 modifiers for everything, that would be great. I'm not specialised, yet, but as I level up I'll become more competent in whichever attack stat I'm primarily making use of and become even greater.

The signature of champions.

Oofta · Nov 13, 2017

Yardiff said:
I agree that weaknesses can be a good character defining hook. What I disagree with is the near requirement that characters have that low stat.

As pointed out, odds are you're going to have at least 1 number below 10 (perhaps significantly below) with 4d6 drop lowest. Many, if not most, of my past characters built with point buy don't have any numbers below 10.

Unless of course you use a different variant.

Yardiff said:
And Gary's maxim was 'at least' 2 15s.

Which is the equivalent of at least 2 12s.

cbwjm · Nov 13, 2017

Wulffolk said:
I have exactly the opposite viewpoint. A good DM comes to session 0 prepared with setting and background information only. He/she should have nothing specific prepared, and never force the group into a pre-planned "adventure" that might have nothing to do with the concepts they create. Players should use that setting information to inspire a group concept and ask questions of the DM to figure out the group's place in the world.

Once that is done the Player's can roll stats and figure out their place in that group. They can use the session to flesh out concepts and create hooks or bonds that give the group a reason to work together and offer the DM an idea of how to shape the setting around the story that the character's were created to tell.

I usually encourage the use of rolling stats (3d6 replace one die with a 4, for scores between 6-16), but if a player is strongly attached to a concept that the dice do not favor I allow them to assign Ability scores to fit the concept. Anybody immature enough to automatically choose all 18's or something similar is a player that is more worried about "winning the game" or hogging the spotlight. My games tend to be more about the story and the role-playing than stats and rolls, so that player probably wouldn't have as much fun with their munchkin in my game as they would expect in another game.

I agree with most of the other points you have made, just not the ones about getting started immediately and blowing through the early levels.

When my friends and I started 5e our session 0 went like this: They made what they wanted, literally no checking on who wanted to play what and which role in any, and then they started an adventure at the entrance to a cavern which they entered and explored. We all had a great time. No setting background because there was no setting other than a vague sense that this is a typical fantasy setting. No hooks or bonds at the start, we just developed as we went and it all worked out great.

A good DM creates a game that's fun (hopefully), whether that is having an adventure preplanned for session 0 or having setting info for the group to set up detailed backgrounds and bonds with the rest of the group, all that matters is that the group has fun. That is to say that I don't think your way is wrong, but I also don't think that it is right.

BookBarbarian · Nov 13, 2017

Well I'm certainly late to this party, and I haven't read all the posts yet.

I'm ok with any of these methods of stat generation as long as they are agreed upon in Session 0.

Hussar · Nov 13, 2017

Yardiff said:
That really depends on what you consider 'high powered' to means. To me high powered is above 'human' max in a stat, in 5e that's over 20. 16-18 I consider strong but not over powered. 14-15 is above 'normal'. 12-13 is 'high normal'. 10-11 is average. 8-9 is 'low normal'. so on.

Edit: made a couple adjustments.

Heh. Sorry, reread what I wrote and it came across a lot more snarky than I meant.

I honestly meant that it's really refreshing to see someone simply be flat out honest about what they want. You want to play higher value characters than I do and there is ZERO wrong with that. You're not trying to dodge or hide behind any trumped up justifications. You like what you like and you're perfectly groovy with that. And that's fantastic.

D&D 5E A Proper Ability Score Generation Preference Poll

What PC ability score generation method do you prefer?

Pick any scores you want

Point-buy of 27 ponts

Standard array only

Default PHB: Players' choice of 4d6 drop lowest OR standard array

Players' choice of 4d6 drop lowest OR point-buy (27 points & including standard array)

4d6 drop lowest only

Other

redrick

First Post

Frankie1969

Adventurer

Yardiff

Adventurer

Yardiff

Adventurer

Wulffolk

Explorer

cbwjm

Seb-wejem

Oofta

Legend

cbwjm

Seb-wejem

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester

Hussar

Legend

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