Is Aegis of Assault the worst mark?

[Obryn]

As I see it, having a defender "run to the back of the enmy lines" sounds like a recipe for trouble. I'd love to be proved wrong.

Actually, it works out great. They're defenders, so drawing attacks means they're doing their job. Also, their AC is generally exceptionally high - so lots of those attacks should be wasted.

-O

 

[WalterKovacs]

1) Extra attacks are extra attacks. Fighters use the -exact same- parameters, but don't have the advantage of range. Yet Fighters are good and Swordmages are bad?

Fighters can attack when they shift, swordmages can't. The fighter can attack when they attack an ally, while the swordmage can attack when they hit an ally. That's the difference. The fighter gets the attack either way, while the swordmage only gets the attack if their ally gets hit.

A lot of the swordmage-sucks arguments don't factor in the fact their punishment is -more effective- than a fighter's. In the right hands, Assault Swordmages are -nasty-. IMHO, Assault Swamis should be going for two-handers to make their marks punish HARD.

While it can be useful at range, and has the benefit of giving a flank most of the time, the basic reason that fighters get props is that they attack on a shift (which, along with stopping someone they hit with an OA means they can really lock an enemy in place) and they attack even when the enemy misses. That means the fighter is probably going to get about twice as many chances to trigger their mark, but the distance does give the swordmages more options (and they can encourage their enemies to attack their allies by being hard for the enemy to go after).

 

[Nail]

Actually, it works out great. They're defenders, so drawing attacks means they're doing their job. Also, their AC is generally exceptionally high - so lots of those attacks should be wasted.

Hmmm..you might be missing a trick here.

If the defender is in the enemy's back lines, separated from her party, playing with the enemy controller....guess who's gonna be attacking the squishy PCs that the defender would normally be blocking?

 

[Fedifensor]

Ouch! I'm glad that total defense idea hasn't occurred to my party's Swordmage yet. Even without that, it's a pain in the ass to hit him with anything. Swordmages have one of the highest ACs in the game.

Hope he doesn't read the boards, or have a subscription to Dragon. There are some very high AC builds for swordmages, and there's a power from Dragon #367 (Shielding Fire) that lets him do damage with his mark in addition to reducing damage on an ally.

At level 8, a well-built shielding swordmage can have up to a 28 AC (10 base + 4 level + 6 Int + 3 hide + 2 enhancement + 3 aegis) normally, and wield a +2 defensive weapon (from Adventurer's Vault) to get a 32 AC when on Total Defense. If he marks with Shielding Fire (from up to 10 squares away), the foe takes fire damage from a hit, then takes more fire damage every time it makes an attack that does not include the swordmage. Very, very useful versus elites and solos.

 

[Fedifensor]

1) Extra attacks are extra attacks. Fighters use the -exact same- parameters, but don't have the advantage of range. Yet Fighters are good and Swordmages are bad?

As mentioned by others, a Fighter's mark triggers on an attack against an ally, or a shift. An assault swordmage has his mark triggered only on a hit.

2) That extra attack can sometimes be a power. Some Swordmage powers are -designed- to be used with Aegis of Assault. The AoA's power is not contained solely in the description of the feature.

Some Swordmage powers are designed to be used with Aegis of Shielding, and they're better. The top of the Aegis-specific powers is Transposing Lunge. It's the first power I've seen that I'd be willing to keep on a character all the way from level 3 to level 30 - it's just that good.

By comparison, the best power that Aegis of Assault has (Maelstrom Blade) is a [3W] attack in a close blast 1 with no other effects besides damage. Yes, using it as a reaction is nice...but negating an attack entirely is better.

3) That basic attack can often be done from flanking. Where you gonna teleport? You -could- teleport beside your friend, or you could teleport in flanking position like a good gentleman. +2 to hit is -always- good.

Nothing prevents a shielding swordmage from getting CA. In fact, since there's a strong incentive for the foe to go after the shielding swordmage, it's not hard to force that foe into a flank in order to get to you.

4) Escalating Assault. That elite won't be ignoring your free damage for long once it gets to +3 to hit from a feat, +2 to hit from flanking... all that adds up.

It's still nowhere near what a striker can do, and your mark's sole contribution to protecting your ally is a -2 to hit.

5) Intellegent Blademaster[/b]Melee Training makes your attack as effective as a fighter's basic.

For both types of swordmages.

6) If wielding a two-handed weapon is viable for a fighter, it's viable for a swordmage. It's only a 2-AC difference for a swordmage. Ironicly, that's the same difference as two-hand-fighter vs. Sword-and-board. It's -almost- as if that were by design.

Two points can make a great deal of difference at the top end. If you have your AC maximized and a defensive weapon in hand, it's quite possible for your foe to need a natural 20 to hit you.

On the flip side, the difference between a 1H weapon and a 2H weapon is 1 to 2 points per [W].

A lot of the swordmage-sucks arguments don't factor in the fact their punishment is -more effective- than a fighter's. In the right hands, Assault Swordmages are -nasty-. IMHO, Assault Swamis should be going for two-handers to make their marks punish HARD.

Really? I would consider stopping someone in their tracks so they don't get to your allies to be very, very valuable. A well-built fighter can dish out just as much damage, mark multiple targets, and stop foes with Combat Superiority.

From what I've seen, the total damage an Assault Swordmage dishes out between normal attacks and their mark is significantly less than what a striker delivers, and not enough of a deterrent against foes to protect allies in the way that a Fighter or Shielding Swordmage can. The shielding swordmage can dish out damage (and status effects) as an interrupt with multiple powers - while still reducing the damage of the attack.

It's possible for every encounter power a Shielding Swordmage has to be usable as an interrupt or reaction. The powers are Transposing Lunge (3rd), Countering Thunderclap (11th, Coronal Guard PP), Thunder Riposte (23rd), and Circle of Devastation (27th). Three can completely negate an attack if they hit (as they are all interrupts that move the target), and two hit not only the marked target but those around the target. The ones triggered by the Aegis can also be used without the Aegis, giving a lot of flexibility. I just don't see that flexibility in the Assault-oriented powers.

 

[KarinsDad]

Some Swordmage powers are designed to be used with Aegis of Shielding, and they're better. The top of the Aegis-specific powers is Transposing Lunge. It's the first power I've seen that I'd be willing to keep on a character all the way from level 3 to level 30 - it's just that good.

Better?

Aegis powers like Transposing Lunge have a weakness if taken. The AoA Swordmage does not need (or even want) to hang onto his encounter powers until his mark triggers like the AoS Swordmage who takes Transposing Lunge. So, the AoA Swordmage can use his encounter powers earlier in the encounter to help decrease the number of foes, hence, shortening the encounter. He doesn't care if he teleports and uses an AoA encounter power, or a basic melee attack. The AoS Swordmage player cares and will more often defer using Transposing Lunge until he can use it with AoS.

There are more AoA feats (4) than there are AoS feats (3). There are more AoA encounter powers (5) than there are AoS encounter powers (4). Granted, a PC could put a lower level AoS encounter power into a higher level encounter slot, so all encounter powers could be AoS powers, but that is not a good strategy.

And, there are Swordmage encounter powers as good as Transposing Lunge. Corrosive Ruin is as good or better in everything but solo encounters (and is considerably better in minion encounters compared to Transposing Lunge). It can easily average as much damage as what Transposing Lunge does even if one combines the amount of damage Transposing Lunge does with what it saves.

And a major difference is that the Swordmage is a Defender. He is often out in front. Damaging a bunch of foes early on in the encounter with Corrosive Ruin is often better than waiting for a marked foe to eventually stop beating on the Swordmage and have it beat on someone else and then use Transposing Lunge. I would expect there to be combats when Transposing Lunge is never used or not used until near the end of the encounter, just because the player realizes that its AoS function will not trigger. I wouldn't expect that as often with Corrosive Ruin.

Yes, Transposing Lunge is better in solo encounters. But, solo encounters, at least IME, are a lot more rare than non-solo encounters.


The significant advantage of an AoS Swordmage is that AoS is an immediate interrupt, not an immediate reaction like AoA. The AoS encounter powers are not what makes an AoS Swordmage good. They can be as much a detriment as they are an advantage.

 

[Obryn]

Hmmm..you might be missing a trick here.

If the defender is in the enemy's back lines, separated from her party, playing with the enemy controller....guess who's gonna be attacking the squishy PCs that the defender would normally be blocking?

Hah! That's true. I'm so used to running for a party with two defenders...

Still, a swordmage is a highly mobile defender. If they are holding a line, I don't think they're being used effectively. They should, ideally, mark one enemy then get the heck away from them and beat up on someone else.

-O

 

[Duelpersonality]

Hmmm..you might be missing a trick here.

If the defender is in the enemy's back lines, separated from her party, playing with the enemy controller....guess who's gonna be attacking the squishy PCs that the defender would normally be blocking?

Actually, that's exactly how I play my AoA swordmage and it works great. I mark one of the up front guys and teleport behind him to bash on the artillery. If he decides not to chase me, he attacks one of the other members of my party (elven cleric, dwarven wizard or half-elf warlock/paladin); he either misses due to the penalty or hits and I get to teleport back in and thwack him.

There's a hidden benefit to an AoA (and AoD) swordmage as well: a fighter has to be adjacent to the enemy when they make their attack for combat challenge to be effective, opening up blasts and bursts that target the fighter and any allies that are in range too (very likely with melee rangers, rogues, warlords, str clerics, etc.). An AoA swordmage can be in a completely different part of the battlefield than the rest of the group, out of the blast or burst area so the mark still applies the penalty and the effect goes off.

 

[Storminator]

Hmmm..you might be missing a trick here.

If the defender is in the enemy's back lines, separated from her party, playing with the enemy controller....guess who's gonna be attacking the squishy PCs that the defender would normally be blocking?

Defending your own squishies is your fighter's job.

I like having a defender in the center of the enemy formation. It gives the rogues flanking while letting them stay on the outside of the combat, vulnerable to only one foe at a time.

If a swordmage gets into the artillery line, he can mark one and attack another. That draws the artillery into fighting him, not the rest of the party. If the enemy counters by drawing back part of their front to fight the swordmage, the party can push forward.

We've had a few fights where this tactic has completely collapsed the enemy formations.

We do have a fighter as well tho, so we can split our defenders.

PS

 

[SabreCat]

I don't know if it's the worst mark, but it's certainly one of the most fun, to my mind. I'm playing a highly teleportation-oriented Eladrin Wandering Swordmage as a short-run Paragon Tier game, and whooshing across the battlefield to deliver a blow to the back of the head of some fool who dared to strike my ally is excellent fun. Plus I feel like choosing whom to mark is a more interesting decision for the Assault Swordmage than it is for other defenders.

Maybe it'd be more effective in a number-crunchy way if I just got to say "oh, reduce that damage by X points" with Shielding, or if I was a Fighter and got more attacks out of my mark... but I certainly enjoy my less-effective mark more!