Archery Full Round Attack

[Jackinthegreen]

But you don't need Manyshot to throw 2 axes, do you?

Axes versus bows and arrows are very, VERY different weapons. Throwing weapons in general are very different from arrows.

Throwing weapons of course can of course be double thrown and hit different targets because there are two (or more) different launchers: each individual hand. With an arrow though, the launcher is actually a combination of using both hands because of the bow being held in one hand while the arrow is knocked and shot from the bow with the other. In effect, it is one single launcher. Because it is one launcher, it is practically impossible to attack two or more targets at the same time.

Might as well add extra discussion: The Manyshot feat could be repurposed to allow a character to throw two weapons from the same hand at the same time. Yes, this could allow four thrown weapons to go off at once, but the hit penalties are absolutely insane.

 

[anest1s]

Axes versus bows and arrows are very, VERY different weapons. Throwing weapons in general are very different from arrows.

If they are so different why both do 1d6 damage. DUH.

 

[Greenfield]

Sounds like a handwave in defense of the rules.

So, you just blow off every point, and follow with "It should work my way".

Color me surprised.

An archer can pull an arrow (1 sec.), pull, nock, aim, all in the same motion (2 sec.), and let fly (0 sec.)....then do it again, all in one combat round.

Is this the voice of experience talking? 'Cause when I went shooting last weekend (as I do most weekends), that wasn't the way it worked.

(Hint: The "nock" on an arrow is the slot in the base that fits around the bowstring. The opening is typically narrower at the tip than at the base, so it sort of "clicks" when you get it into place. "Nocking" an arrow is the action of fitting the nock around the string. You don't "pull, nock, aim" all in one motion, and certainly not in that order.) In fact, you don't pull the arrow at all. The nock holds the arrow on the string. You draw the string back, and the nock draws the arrow with it.

Or, he should be able to. It should be a Full Action albeit with a penalty attached.

Ah, that explains it. This was wishful thinking, not reality.

Seriously Water Bob, all snark aside, try the exercises I suggested in my last post. Go through the throwing motions with a couple of weighty objects, and throw hard, like you're trying to kill someone on the other end. The two throws aren't distinct and separate actions. One flows into the other, overlapping time frames.

You're treating them like they are distinct, as if they were unrelated to each other.

Double firing the bow really is two distinct action sequences.

As for setting up two arrows... When you fire a bow, the arrow has to rest on something at the point where it crosses the bow. On a simple bow, that might be the hand, or a finger. (No, you don't wrap a finger over the arrow, unless you like missing a lot while getting your finger sliced by the fletchings.) Most modern bows have a "shelf", a flat area carved out of the grip for this purpose, often containing a quill tip that protrudes for the shaft to rest on. Without that support, the arrow flops, and can't be fired.

Firing two arrows at once is a fantasy. I've seen one expert do it, but his bow was modified slightly for the purpose, fitted with an extra quill, and even he couldn't hid diddly with it. So leave such tricks to the movies. They have no place in real life archery.

As a fun note: For any who try traditional archery (meaning wooden bows and arrows, no sights or counterbalances, no mechanical releases), try the technique called "String Walking".

Normally you draw back to your ear or cheekbone as an anchor point, and the arrow sits some three or four inches below your eye, so you can't sight directly along it. If you try, you're shooting high.

But if you slide (or "walk") your grip down the string you can bring the fletched base of the arrow right to eye level, and the arrow itself becomes your sight. You're dead on at point blank range.

As range increases, you "walk" your grip on the string higher, and continue to use the arrowhead as your sight. It gives you the benefits of a targeting sight, without actually having to have one. (Sights really are forbidden in traditional competitions.)

 

[Greenfield]

If they are so different why both do 1d6 damage. DUH.

Um, they don't?

 

[Water Bob]

It does seem easier to throw two axes than to nock two arrows. In that, I could throw two axes right now, but would be unable to shoot two arrows with a bow.

My first thought on this was, "no way".

Then I thought a bit more on this, and using a bow is deceptively harder than it looks, from the few times I've used one.

OTOH, I'd assume that the 1st level Fighter is proficient with both the bow and with the axe. Given that, I still stick to my guns and say that a proficient archer could let fly two arrows in about the same amount of time it takes the same fighter to throw two hand axes at two different targets, one in each hand.

 

[anest1s]

To be totally fair, maybe they didn't want allow two weapon fighting without the feat either. But I suspect that you can't tell someone that he can't hold something in his hand. So they just put very high penalties. On the other hand they didn't make penalties for something that doesn't make sense. Like they don't have penalties for ''I want to use tree weapons'' situations. Or the ''I want to hit multiple times at sonic speed'', or the ''I tie a rope to my axe, then with one hand I drop in in 2 secs and for my second attack I use the rope to lash it back in my hand in 2 secs, then use 2/3 of my movement to move 20ft'' situation.

If you really thing your game is missing a way to handle this, feel free to make a rule about that.

However you have to find a way to make everything equal.
-Bows have 60+ft range, no reload time
-Axes have 10ft range, move action reload time

If you make the bow stronger, then make the axe stronger too, because now the bowman can throw 4 arrows when the axeman can throw 3 axes, and with much less accuracy. Then make melee attacks equally strong- and then the spellcasters and the monsters natural attacks too. Good luck.

 

[irdeggman]

My first thought on this was, "no way".

Then I thought a bit more on this, and using a bow is deceptively harder than it looks, from the few times I've used one.

OTOH, I'd assume that the 1st level Fighter is proficient with both the bow and with the axe. Given that, I still stick to my guns and say that a proficient archer could let fly two arrows in about the same amount of time it takes the same fighter to throw two hand axes at two different targets, one in each hand.

Again time is irrelevant - the amount of effort required is the important factor.

Does it take a 1st level fighter the same amount of effort to throw 2 axes at different targets as it does to shoot 2 arrows?

With a short bow?

With a composite bow?

I say time is irrelevant because (other than the core rules issue) if it is the important thing then why can a high level fighter make more attacks in the same amount of time? That is to say, why does it take less time for a 2oth level fighter to make up to 7 attacks (with the right feats I believe it is possible to get up to 3 off hand attacks in a round on a full attack option) than a 1st level fighter to make 2?

It should be noted that in order for a 1st level fighter to trow 2 axes in a single round he either needs to start the round with them already in his hand or have the quick draw feat and/or 2 weapon fighting.

An archer takes no time to nock an arrow - he needs to have his bow in hand but not an arrow nocked.

 

[Ranes]

Um, they don't?

I believe he was comparing the throwing axe to the short bow.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

My first thought on this was, "no way".

Then I thought a bit more on this, and using a bow is deceptively harder than it looks, from the few times I've used one.

OTOH, I'd assume that the 1st level Fighter is proficient with both the bow and with the axe. Given that, I still stick to my guns and say that a proficient archer could let fly two arrows in about the same amount of time it takes the same fighter to throw two hand axes at two different targets, one in each hand.

Easiest way to finish this off so to speak: Treat the "quick attack" like it's an off-hand attack, thus using the two-weapon fighting penalties. The off-hand weapon in this case is Light for a shortbow, or One-handed for a longbow or something.

Really though, the only way an archer could pull this off is if he's highly trained (BAB higher than 6) or if he has readied the arrows in his hand. The game's rules state an archer is drawing the arrows from the quiver, while it's decently possible to ready the arrows.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yorHswhzrU]‪Archery Rapid Fire Hun Archery Kassai‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]