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In the Spotlight: 4th edition and DPR

Note: To verify this, go play Lair Assault. Balanced teams tend to get crushed because they don't have enough healing/damage mitigation and they don't do enough damage (another form of damage mitigation). Teams consisting mostly of Leaders and Strikers breeze through it.

Interesting - I've not got any Lair Assaults near where I am in the UK, so I can't comment (but I don't really doubt what you're saying).

Specifically, what I mean by "messing with my plans" though, is the ability for a decent party to absolutely ruin my chances of focus-firing on a single PC, or gaining some form of tactical control. In my main group, for example, the Battlemind/Fighter hybrid is the stickiest thing ever. Through teleports, blurred steps, and fighter superiority she can lock down anything that comes close. The beastmaster/shaman has two blockers on the map at any one time. It's nuts.

Ultimately damage may well win out, but when the monster's attacks are so spread out, it's difficult for me to pin it all down to any one thing.
 

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This is the key point in your post and indicates you disagree with the OP. I agree with you that all positions have opportunities to shine. The rest of your post I think is off-topic, but also worth reading.

I never said anything about other roles not being on the spotlight. I've noticed, from a personal stand point, that those other moments from other roles are quickly forgotten.

Even when we reminisce about battles from earlier 4th edition games, it's always: "Hey remember when Joe the Barbarian did 200 points of damage in one round to that boss?"
 

A hack and slash non-tactical group would prefer DPR, yes. Why would this surprise you? Do you never have non-combat encounters where DPR becomes zero?

We have non-combat sessions all the time and we are some of the most tactical oriented groups out there. What's your point?

One thing I can say from personal experience is that unnecessary tactics seems to come into the fold a lot. I'm not talking about tactics that don't work, I am talking about tactics that just delay the killing.

Setting up zones and shifting people five ways to heaven is cool and all but sometimes it just makes the fight drag on. The reason for this is because you as an individual want your turn in combat and you want to do something cool so I understand that perfectly but there are times when it's best that you just hit the guy, do your damage and let the striker step in to take the creature down.

Note: I play a controller (wizard) probably 99% of the time so no I am not a DPR nut.
 

When the defender takes a hit from a marked foe, the players often do not know if the foe attacked the defender because it had to, or because it would have attacked the defender anyway.

This is where the DM explaining things helps, as was mentioned above.

"The kobold glares angrily at the dwarf, but is too wary of the paladin to dare taking his attention off her."

Note: To verify this, go play Lair Assault. Balanced teams tend to get crushed because they don't have enough healing/damage mitigation and they don't do enough damage (another form of damage mitigation). Teams consisting mostly of Leaders and Strikers breeze through it.

If you are taking teams that do well in Lair Assault as models for "ideal" teams in non-Lair Assault games, then you completely misunderstand the purpose of LA.

For groups for whom killing things as fast as possible is the ideal outcome, then for them, yes, strikers are among the most important roles. However, for groups for whom DPR is not king, and tactical play is more up their alley, then they will want a more balanced party.

Each group will have their own quirks and styles of play, and to take one particular group's preferred playstyle and assume that it is the default mode for all groups is, to be frank, incredibly short sighted and arrogant.
 

DPR is king as long as the bad guys are not threatening. If they have abilities that screw you up or have heavy attacks, they can focus fire a striker down fairly quickly. A controller make it so that they don't attack at all, a defender can absorb the damage. A leader can do any number of things depending on class. Make it easier for you to hit, make it harder for them to hit, lock them down, etc.

If you are doing 1 or 2 encounters a day, you can probably afford to have strikers take damage. But as the adventuring day winds on, healing surges start to dry up.
 

DPR is king as long as the bad guys are not threatening. If they have abilities that screw you up or have heavy attacks, they can focus fire a striker down fairly quickly. A controller make it so that they don't attack at all, a defender can absorb the damage. A leader can do any number of things depending on class. Make it easier for you to hit, make it harder for them to hit, lock them down, etc.

If you are doing 1 or 2 encounters a day, you can probably afford to have strikers take damage. But as the adventuring day winds on, healing surges start to dry up.

But there is nothing really stopping you from having the 2 to 3 encounter work day unless you are on some kind of time limit.
 

I hate the 15-minute adventuring day problem. I've been working on ways to give my players more encounters without an easy way to sleep between them. They don't mind it, it let's them flex some strategic muscles they haven't been using.

If your DM is pulling punches my making sure you don't find yourself with too many encounters in a row without a chance to sleep, that's fine. If that's what the players enjoy then that's what he should be doing.

Maybe saying X party configuration is better than Y doesn't make sense. The DM chooses the standard by which the party will be judged, and he will adjust his side of the screen to provide a good challenge for the players. So I suppose it comes down to what people appreciate. They two groups I play with on a regular basis tend to treat an exceptionally high amount of damage the same as an exceptional enemy lock-down or interrupt.
 

I hate the 15-minute adventuring day problem. I've been working on ways to give my players more encounters without an easy way to sleep between them. They don't mind it, it let's them flex some strategic muscles they haven't been using.

If your DM is pulling punches my making sure you don't find yourself with too many encounters in a row without a chance to sleep, that's fine. If that's what the players enjoy then that's what he should be doing.

Maybe saying X party configuration is better than Y doesn't make sense. The DM chooses the standard by which the party will be judged, and he will adjust his side of the screen to provide a good challenge for the players. So I suppose it comes down to what people appreciate. They two groups I play with on a regular basis tend to treat an exceptionally high amount of damage the same as an exceptional enemy lock-down or interrupt.

We tend to do random encounter tables to cut out on the 15 minute work day and it works sometimes but you have to be careful because sometimes the party may get encounters back to back to back and the game really isn't designed to handle that very well. Sometimes it works out great and sometimes not so great.
 

DPR is king as long as the bad guys are not threatening. If they have abilities that screw you up or have heavy attacks, they can focus fire a striker down fairly quickly. A controller make it so that they don't attack at all, a defender can absorb the damage. A leader can do any number of things depending on class. Make it easier for you to hit, make it harder for them to hit, lock them down, etc.

DPR is still king in these situations. A dead foe cannot screw up the PCs.

This is especially true now that monsters do ~1/2 level extra damage per successful attack. The monster effects had a greater overall impact when the monster damage was less. The monster damage was less of a factor. Now that monster damage is greater, it is even more critical to take monsters out quickly than it ever was before. PCs have to mitigate effects and they have to mitigate more damage. Every battle by definition now uses up more party resources on average.

Looked at another way, with the monsters doing more damage, it is more important to do some form of damage mitigation: surgeless healing, killing monsters faster, temporary hit points, damage resistance. Anything to prevent PCs from falling unconscious and shifting action economy into the favor of the monsters.

Yes, a controller can totally lock down a foe. Typically, it is one foe and it is often only for 1 or 2 rounds. Yes, a defender can influence a few foes to attack him. But the fact remains that the foes are still attacking someone.

I've seen defenders use up 5 healing surges in a single encounter. Sure, the striker would have used up 6 or 7 healing surges in the same focus fire situation due to getting hit slightly more often and healing slightly less per surge if the striker did the same amount of damage as the defender. But the striker takes those same foes out faster than the defender. Typically in 2/3rds or less of the time. That means that the striker would really use up about 4 healing surges in that same situation plus the monsters have fewer opportunities to put conditions on the striker since they get fewer attacks.

Defenders don't really mitigate as much monster damage or save as many party resources as people think.

If you are doing 1 or 2 encounters a day, you can probably afford to have strikers take damage. But as the adventuring day winds on, healing surges start to dry up.

Except that a high DPR group (not necessarily all strikers, but PCs that can nova) wipe foes out quicker and hence, their group does take less damage. DPR combined with focused fire mitigates using up resources more than any other game mechanic overall.

THP, surgeless healing, debuffs, and damage resistance all mitigate monster damage to some extent, but not nearly as much as taking foes out in 2/3rds the time.

And there are always exceptions based on situation. The controller who slides a foe into a deep pit, both damaging the foe and preventing it from attacking for 2 rounds until it can stand up and get out. The leader who added +2 to hit and that 10% extra chance to hit allows someone else to hit where they would have otherwise missed. All of these add to the overall party effectiveness. It's just that the +2 to hit only changes the situation 1 attack in 10 when it applies whereas taking a foe out earlier not only typically prevents one attack by that foe, it allows the PCs to focus fire more on the remaining foes and take them out quicker (hence, mitigating monster effects and damage, and using fewer party resources).

And an all damage approach doesn't work either. Parties need healing and handing out of free saving throws and ways to avoid or overcome monster effects. It's not all about damage. But the bottom line is that the one game mechanic that is responsible for the winning of encounters is damage. DPR is king. There really is no good way to Mass Charm a group of monsters and have them walk away.

Delaying attacks is helpful, but preventing them completely is preferable.
 


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