D&D 5E 5e fireballs

[Henry]

I've seen a few 4E encounters where the Wizard spells worked incredibly well to "ruin" the enemies plan. Not "let all enemies sleep", but at least "kill all minions and negate several enemy archers thanks to a well placed stinking cloud".

I will say I do miss one facet of AD&D spells that has been gradually reduced with every new edition -- inventive uses for spells. I fondly remember stories of people using spells in unique ways that were locked down tightly later. There's a reason summoned monsters can only be pulled in on flat stable surfaces; that create water can't be summoned into a creature's lungs; that the light spell has no offensive component whatsoever; that lightning bolts don't bounce and fireballs don't fill their full volume; and that spells that make walls aren't as shapeable as they used to be.

I used to say that one good exercise in AD&D was to look at each spell, and think of three ways you can use it that aren't in the spell description. As D&D has progressed, there's exactly ONE way to use most spells, clearly defined, with no wiggle room on effects. While I understand the reasoning (because players are all deviant whackjobs who shouldn't be out of an asylum ) I do miss that trait in D&D players nowadays.

 

[pemerton]

Defensive, really. Like good armor, it can be donned while being on offense but that doesn't make the armor anything but defensive.

On a rogue it's maybe more offensive than defensive, but I'd still say it's a utility spell. Otherwise fly should also be categorized as a combat spell due to its defensive utility.

I was thinking of thieves (and their backstabs) too - I had a player who in AD&D was a big fan of the gnome or svirfneblin illusionist/thief. In Rolemaster he played a mystic (a type of illusionist/transmuter), who also used invisibility to great offensive advantage, because in RM invisibility benefits spells similarly to the way it benefits weapon attacks in AD&D.

 

[pemerton]

I will say I do miss one facet of AD&D spells that has been gradually reduced with every new edition -- inventive uses for spells.

I'm not sure how high your threshhold is for inventiveness - but I enjoyed it when, a few sessions ago now, the wizard in my 4e game used Twist of Space to teleport the catoblepas into the air, while teleporting the three cultists underneath the catoblepas - with hilarity ensuing!

 

[ferratus]

There's a reason summoned monsters can only be pulled in on flat stable surfaces; that create water can't be summoned into a creature's lungs; that the light spell has no offensive component whatsoever; that lightning bolts don't bounce and fireballs don't fill their full volume; and that spells that make walls aren't as shapeable as they used to be.

Which was the wrong way to go about it frankly. There is no reason that any of those options couldn't have been solved with "okay make an attack roll/ and/or arcana check and resolve it based on the other damage spells of that level.

Wait, didn't that the 5e design team say they were categorizing spells according to equivelant damage?

 

[Fanaelialae]

I do miss that trait in D&D players nowadays.

I think it still exists, although nowadays it's much more situational. That's not a bad thing though, IMO.

For example, a while back my Swordmage was fighting demons, and was placed under an effect that prevented him from attacking (a succubus?) until he was attacked. However, in that situation it was highly problematic, to the degree that we were likely to lose if things continued. I used Dimensional Vortex (a swordmage spell which redirects an attack against an ally (usually) to an enemy) to redirect her attack to myself, thereby breaking her hold over me.

So, like I said, it's still there but you tend to have to think of those unusual uses on the fly. Which, IMO, is an improvement. Using Create Water to drown a creature seemed clever when I was 12, but it just seems obvious and game breaking now that I'm 30.

 

[KarinsDad]

I've seen a few 4E encounters where the Wizard spells worked incredibly well to "ruin" the enemies plan. Not "let all enemies sleep", but at least "kill all minions and negate several enemy archers thanks to a well placed stinking cloud".

I have too.

But, here's the kicker.

I've seen every class do that in 4E. Which is fine if every class is balanced in other ways. But, they are not.

The Wizard has vastly fewer hit points and AC than a Paladin. 6 fewer AC if not taking a feat which is a HUGE amount on a D20.

But, I've seen 4E Paladins save the day just as often as I've seen 4E Wizards do so. The Wizard's power is watered down to that of the Paladin, but his hit points and AC are still watered down, even lower in the case of AC than any previous edition of the game system.

So I understand how one could think that 4E balanced the game well, but the designers didn't. The Wizard is a wimp in 4E compared to most other classes, but his abilities are not that superior. Yes, one can min max a Wizard to wipe out an encounter with Sleep or once in a blue moon put up a wall spell, but that level of versatility is also a lot less than in earlier editions. He has good Daily powers, but everything else is only average. Not true for other classes which have mostly better defenses and hit points, but have gained significantly in power and versatility.

Still, the 4E Wizard has the lowest AC and hit points, he's almost forced to take certain defensive boosting feats such as Unarmored Agility and powers such as Shield. Other classes do not have this dependency on additional defensive abilities, but they can still blind foes, or do area effects, etc. In their effort to water down the Wizard and water up other classes, they went overboard. His Daily powers are pretty good. His At Will and Encounter powers, the vast majority of powers he uses, are not that much more impressive than most other classes. IMO. Obviously, YMMV.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I have too.

But, here's the kicker.

I've seen every class do that in 4E. Which is fine if every class is balanced in other ways. But, they are not.

The Wizard has vastly fewer hit points and AC than a Paladin. 6 fewer AC if not taking a feat which is a HUGE amount on a D20.

But, I've seen 4E Paladins save the day just as often as I've seen 4E Wizards do so. The Wizard's power is watered down to that of the Paladin, but his hit points and AC are still watered down, even lower in the case of AC than any previous edition of the game system.

So I understand how one could think that 4E balanced the game well, but the designers didn't. The Wizard is a wimp in 4E compared to most other classes, but his abilities are not that superior. Yes, one can min max a Wizard to wipe out an encounter with Sleep or once in a blue moon put up a wall spell, but that level of versatility is also a lot less than in earlier editions. He has good Daily powers, but everything else is only average. Not true for other classes which have mostly better defenses and hit points, but have gained significantly in power and versatility.

Still, the 4E Wizard has the lowest AC and hit points, he's almost forced to take certain defensive boosting feats such as Unarmored Agility and powers such as Shield. Other classes do not have this dependency on additional defensive abilities, but they can still blind foes, or do area effects, etc. In their effort to water down the Wizard and water up other classes, they went overboard. His Daily powers are pretty good. His At Will and Encounter powers, the vast majority of powers he uses, are not that much more impressive than most other classes. IMO. Obviously, YMMV.

The Wizard doesn't need massive defenses in 4e because, aside from the 3e Knight, 4e is the first edition where Defender classes can actually protect their allies (when there isn't a 5' doorway to stand in). Paladins and Fighters have high hp and defenses because they're soaking up the damage in lieu of the Wizard (and other squishies).

4e is well balanced. Everyone gets to save the day some of the time, and everyone needs everyone else to do so. The wizard's save the day abilities are nonetheless some of the most potent, often ruining the ability for entire groups of creatures to coordinate themselves effectively.

 

[Henry]

I'm not sure how high your threshhold is for inventiveness - but I enjoyed it when, a few sessions ago now, the wizard in my 4e game used Twist of Space to teleport the catoblepas into the air, while teleporting the three cultists underneath the catoblepas - with hilarity ensuing!

Does Twist of Space teleport the targets? If so, you can't teleport into mid-air in 4E, can you? Haven't looked at the rules in a log time, but I thought you had to teleport to a stable surface.

 

[Banshee16]

I have too.

But, here's the kicker.

I've seen every class do that in 4E. Which is fine if every class is balanced in other ways. But, they are not.

The Wizard has vastly fewer hit points and AC than a Paladin. 6 fewer AC if not taking a feat which is a HUGE amount on a D20.

But, I've seen 4E Paladins save the day just as often as I've seen 4E Wizards do so. The Wizard's power is watered down to that of the Paladin, but his hit points and AC are still watered down, even lower in the case of AC than any previous edition of the game system.

So I understand how one could think that 4E balanced the game well, but the designers didn't. The Wizard is a wimp in 4E compared to most other classes, but his abilities are not that superior. Yes, one can min max a Wizard to wipe out an encounter with Sleep or once in a blue moon put up a wall spell, but that level of versatility is also a lot less than in earlier editions. He has good Daily powers, but everything else is only average. Not true for other classes which have mostly better defenses and hit points, but have gained significantly in power and versatility.

Still, the 4E Wizard has the lowest AC and hit points, he's almost forced to take certain defensive boosting feats such as Unarmored Agility and powers such as Shield. Other classes do not have this dependency on additional defensive abilities, but they can still blind foes, or do area effects, etc. In their effort to water down the Wizard and water up other classes, they went overboard. His Daily powers are pretty good. His At Will and Encounter powers, the vast majority of powers he uses, are not that much more impressive than most other classes. IMO. Obviously, YMMV.

I've seen the same thing in both 2E and 3E with classes other than wizards. With dual wielding fighters....ie dual wielded longswords with specialization, and what.....4 attacks a round with some of the later optional books? Completely chopping through a baddy's defenses. In 3E, a real good critical taking an opponent down to 5 hp in a single hit, on the first round of combat, etc.

It happens for all classes.....and in different editions..not just 4E.

Banshee

 

[Mattachine]

Does Twist of Space teleport the targets? If so, you can't teleport into mid-air in 4E, can you? Haven't looked at the rules in a log time, but I thought you had to teleport to a stable surface.

In 4e, you can teleport targets into the air or damaging terrain, but the target gets a save to negate the effect.

Also, in 4e, the DM is specifically encouraged to make rulings, judgement calls, and to bend the rules to make the game fun. Yes, the 4e DMG specifically calls on the DM to do these things.