Is it WotC’s responsibility to bring people to the hobby?

[Mark CMG]

That is a cheap way to dismiss someone's opinion. Have you really done much research to reply to my post or just used your knowledge?

Dude, you've been dismissing people left and right for pointing out things to you by then implying that whatever they show you is all there is and that it isn't enough for you. For anyone who wasn't previously aware of the two links I gave you, they werent hard to find. Again, I suggest you take a little time to get more familiar with the subject. In the meantime, I'm going to bow out of this thread.

 

[Leviatham]

He's right, to a point.

1. Back in OD&D and AD&D days it was much more of a "big tent" because the games were so similar. Moving from 1E to 2E was a breeze, for example.

2. Anyone looking from the outside saw the "Dungeons & Dragons" logo, with or without the "Advanced" prefix and similar looking books even (at least through early 2E). WotC owns teh right to the easily and most recognizable brand in the industry.

3. There also wasn't the internet forum issue and every schmuck with a keyboard blogging like the wind. Back then, you moreso had to sit down and check out the game to see if you'd like it. There are edition warriors on this site who deride 4E, for example, who admit they've never played it nor even really read it, just read some blog posts yet claim to be experts on why it's a bad game. When you sit down and experience things first hand you're more likely to accept things or look at things without the outlet of anaymous internet rancor, which turns people off in-general. People on the outside of the fanbase have Google too.

So far agreed.

"Shrinking" is kind of a loaded term, but 'the number of companies being created' is no measure, especially today. You can now self-publish and go all pdf with a laptop. That's a huge change in teh industry and a lot of these new "companies" are just that, one guy with a laptop.

Agreed too.

This is flat-out false. WotC's marketing may leave a lot to be desired but D&D is still the name people from the outside know. More licensed products would be a boon though and WotC lagging means the industry lags.

I haven't said it is not. I have said it is diluting rapidly. That is based on people I have heard say they knew D&D as videogames but not tabletops, and the number of people I see at conventions starting with other games.

Yes it is the flagship... for now.

Which is one-and-the-same. Every other RPG (and WotC themselves, with purchasing the IP) have leached from D&D because it was the first, the biggest and the most recognized.

For a company is not the same. Or at least shouldn't. For a company it should be about their product, regardless of the wider scene. If it isn't, they either have a LOT of money or very little sense.

This really means nothing outside of to those already in the hobby.

If you make your community excited about your product, that community will thrive and grow. It might not mean much outside of those already in the hobby, but enhances the chances of people in the community talking to outsiders.

The OGL was a major mistake from a business standpoint, period. Fanboys love it but at the end of the day it was a horrible decision.

Can't agree more.

Protecting your IP is serious business and a lot of people have done things they shouldn't have with it. Just because it's "only a game" does not change the fact its production is peoples' livelihood.

I have already expanded in a previous post about this point. I agree that they have to protect their IP. Whether the use of the IP that some of the fans made and who were threatened with legal action is a threat to the commercial success of such IP is a different matter altogether.

The hobby is a very minute portion of their overall business, and they are a business. They know plenty about the hobby, they allocate the resources they deem profitable to placate a bunch of irrational fanboys

Forgive me, but if they truly knew about the hobby they wouldn't have applied their resources the way they have.

As for calling the D&D fanbase "A bunch of irrational fanboys"... I think I'll leave that one there hanging.

So wrong it's painful. Try talking to WoD fans and see how wrong you are, or Shadowrun, or.....

As stated on a previous post, I have been corrected on that one.

That's everyone everywhere. Look at any comment section on any internet story.

But we are talking about gamers and about games, not about everyone everywhere.

Also, just because it happens everywhere, it doesn't mean is justified.

Yes it is, but then the entire industry relies on the D&D name to bring it recognition.

Then the entire industry has attachment issues and need to either wake up, or grow up.

True, but with the size of the hobby, how many resources will a business want to commit to such a niche market? they want to make profitable moves.

And not doing the advertising is not proving profitable either.

In any event, I used advertising as an example. There are loads of marketing and publicity initiatives that could be undertaken and aren't.

Good publicity doesn't have to be expensive.

Part of this is we've gotten to be a lazy, disassociated culture. The electronic age brings easy access to words from around the world, but they're more impersonal. Anonymity and distance are not good for creating true bonds among people. Facebook and WoW "friends" are not real friends, they're electronic aquaintances. People like the convenience of online gaming, but that's not the strength of this hobby.

Agreed

It's in their interest to draw people to teh hobby and every member of the hobby knows (or should know) that. Coke & Pepsi do fly the flag for carbonated drinks, their marketing brings industry recognition.

And yet you don't see them promoting any other drink than theirs. Industry recognition is a byproduct of their presence, side and reputation.

Agreed.

Very much agreed.

We agree! Yayy!!!

 

[BobROE]

For the same reason as it is WotC's - if you want to continue playing then, eventually, you will need to recruit new people for your group.

And I when I need to I will (as I have in the past), but I don't see why I should be selling the game on a "day to day" basis.

I don't have the time to run additional games, or space to have more players, and it seems rude to me to tell people they should play a game and then say "but not with me".

(also most of the people I know who would be interested have actually played before but that's more a function of the industry I work in, than the reach of D&D).

 

[Desdichado]

To the same level and extent? Pretty much.

I'd be prepared to be put right if I am wrong, though.

I think you're wrong. The bitter tears shed over the changes to MegaTraveller, the changes to TNE Traveller, and the debacle of Marc Millar's Traveller were only somewhat eased by the release of GURPS Traveller--which purposefully ignored most anything that post-dated Classic Traveller. And heck; there's been FIVE subsequent versions since then; I've lost track of the current state of Traveller discussion. But holy cow, do I remember tons of bitterness between Classic fans, MT fans and ... well, come to think of it, I don't remember any TNE fans. Pretty much everyone seemed to hate that version.

 

[El Mahdi]

That is a cheap way to dismiss someone's opinion. Have you really done much research to reply to my post or just used your knowledge?

I could just as easily say you lack an understanding of marketing based on your previous post.

Also, you're not addressing my questions. If they do well, why aren't they any bigger or selling more? Why isn't the hobby bigger?

And why aren't gamers doing more?

What's the point of starting a thread about one's personal opinion, and then disregarding or responding defensively when someone else responds to your posts, politely, and with opinions of their own...?

If all you want is a public forum where you can state your opinion without it being challenged, then you've chosen the wrong forum in which to do so.

 

[Desdichado]

What are players, or what should players do to promote the hobby?

Nothing. The players are, presumably, playing the game with their groups. About the only thing I'd expect players to do to promote the hobby, and even then only indirectly in the sense that they could be recruiting potential players if they don't have them. Other than keeping their own games going, I don't see that players have any community obligation to the hobby or some other abstract construct of any kind.

 

[renau1g]

Nothing. The players are, presumably, playing the game with their groups. About the only thing I'd expect players to do to promote the hobby, and even then only indirectly in the sense that they could be recruiting potential players if they don't have them. Other than keeping their own games going, I don't see that players have any community obligation to the hobby or some other abstract construct of any kind.

Agreed. WoTC has a benefit to increasing the hobby, while I don't outside of maintaining my own game. If I recruit 20 new players to the hobby, I don't "get" anything out of it, so I'd much rather use that time to do other things, like play the game, or work extra hours to bring in new clients (and I do get something out of that ).

 

[Desdichado]

Because if you're not prepared to help the hobby expand and grow, you shouldn't be prepared to complain when games you like are no longer produced. And they won't be produced much longer.

Luckily for me... I don't.

This apathy you display is exactly the attitude I mentioned in my OP and the attitude that's so pernicious to the hobby.

No it's not.

Maybe there's some confusion here about what exactly a "hobby" means. A hobby is something that I do for fun. I enjoy it. Once it becomes sufficient work that I'm not enjoying it, it ceases to become my hobby and I quit doing it at all.

Very few people enjoy someone telling them that they need to be ambassadors to the hobby. By implying that, I believe that you're accelerating the demise of the hobby. Well, not really--because folks would just ignore you and do what they do anyway. But if they took that sentiment seriously, most of them would find a more laid-back hobby that they could enjoy more.

 

[Herschel]

And yet you don't see them promoting any other drink than theirs. Industry recognition is a byproduct of their presence, side and reputation.

It's akin to gaming though from that standpoint. Sections in stores stock all sorts of brands along side the big ones. I like root beer, but Barq's is really terrible. But next to all the Coke products I also find Sprecher and Point, two really good ones from small, actual breweries. But without Coke & Pepsi products the stores won't have a prominant beverage section.

 

[Leviatham]

What's the point of starting a thread about one's personal opinion, and then disregarding or responding defensively when someone else responds to your posts, politely, and with opinions of their own...?

If all you want is a public forum where you can state your opinion without it being challenged, then you've chosen the wrong forum in which to do so.

There is a difference between challenging and dismissing.

You've been challenging my opinions all the way and I haven't had an issue.

However if someone, who's not really participated with any noticeable reasoning just turns to me and says "you don't know what you're talking about" (which what his statement amounts to), I think I have all the right to challenge that too.