D&D 5E How much should 5e aim at balance?

[Pickles JG]

He wrote "equally metagame", not "all metagame". That is, he's clearly using "metagame" as a quality or degree, not a binary (it IS metagame OR it isn't) meaning. You can't use the word "equally" otherwise ("that Nissan and that Toyota are equally automobile")

How does that make any sense? They are concepts that exist in the game but not in the game world. It's like arguing which is more real fairies or Santa.

I read that Alexandrian on HP & he comes out in favour (something along the lines of) healing surges.

 

[TwoSix]

From the "I don't have a horse in the edition war race" and the "substantive discussion of mechanics is not an edition war" and "let's not insult newbie posters in a futile attempt to defend our game of choice" side of things, I think it's important to show support when someone tries to make and appropriate and reasonable contribution to the discussion and gets insulted.

Fair enough (although I don't feel like trying to figure out who got insulted and by whom). Your phrasing simply suggested that the edition warriors were 4e fans only. That's pretty apparently not the case.

 

[Shadeydm]

Tide of Iron
After each swing, you use your shield to shove your foe backward, and then you surge ahead.
At-Will Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be using a shield.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you can push the target 1 square if it is no larger than one size category larger than you. You can then shift 1 square into the space that the target left.
Level 21: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage.

What power are you actually talking about?

Yes tide of iron plus, spear push, plus polearm momentum means my trident and shield weilding rushing cleats wearing fighter knocks his enemy 15 feet and prone every round no opening doesn't matter of you see it coming.

But even if its 10 feet and prone or 5 feet and and standing up there is no real reason he shouldn't be able to attack twice every round via rain of blows except the utter nonesense previously mentioned its an arbitrary and stupid limitation.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Your phrasing simply suggested that the edition warriors were 4e fans only. That's pretty apparently not the case.

Beyond this specific context, it is not. A war obviously requires multiple participants.

 

[Shadeydm]

Tide of Straw methinks.

Although I have already ansewered his question I would like to take a minute and thank you for being so short sighted that you can't imagine a simple feat or two would change things a bit
You have actually played 4E I hope and not just chiming in out of pure ignorance?

 

[TwoSix]

Yes tide of iron plus, spear push, plus polearm momentum means my trident and shield weilding rushing cleats wearing fighter knocks his enemy 15 feet and prone every round no opening doesn't matter of you see it coming.

But even if its 10 feet and prone or 5 feet and and standing up there is no real reason he shouldn't be able to attack twice every round via rain of blows except the utter nonesense previously mentioned its an arbitrary and stupid limitation.

What is this I don't even...

Wasn't the complaint about encounters or dailies representing openings? ToI is an at-will. A particularly bad-ass fighter can make an opening, run in and shove somebody way back with his shield. I'm not seeing what the problem is.

 

[Shadeydm]

What is this I don't even...

Wasn't the complaint about encounters or dailies representing openings? ToI is an at-will. A particularly bad-ass fighter can make an opening, run in and shove somebody way back with his shield. I'm not seeing what the problem is.

So your position is that its reasonable for my fighter to be able to ToI every round stabbing the same enemy over and over knocking him 15 feet away and prone with no opening. Yet to stand still and stab someone twice requires an opening that can only occur once per encounter? If you don't see an issue here I'm not really sure what more I can say to enlighten you.

 

[Pickles JG]

But even if its 10 feet and prone or 5 feet and and standing up there is no real reason he shouldn't be able to attack twice every round via rain of blows except the utter nonesense previously mentioned its an arbitrary and stupid limitation.

There are no real reasons for any of this there are only in game reasons & in that context they are not arbitrary. At will prone & push is pretty strong so there could be "stupid" game reasons for letting that happen, but it really just shows 4e is not perfectly balanced.

This one obviously kills your versimilitude. HP did it for me in 1980 so I took up Runequest. I have never been able to take D&D remotely serious as a simulation so I play it as a fine game.

 

[Underman]

I have never been able to take D&D remotely serious as a simulation so I play it as a fine game.

Not referring to you specifically, but in general, for all those people who don't take D&D seriously as a simulation, why do they keep defending various half-assed fluff explanations (that they don't take seriously anyway) against those who DO treat it more earnestly? Aren't they just yanking their chains?

EDIT: I agree that D&D isn't a serious simulation. I'm referring to the effort made to back up the crunch as is with compelling or verisimilitudinous fluff.

 

[Shadeydm]

There are no real reasons for any of this there are only in game reasons & in htat conte3xt they are not arbitrary. At will prone & push is pretty strong so there could be "stupid" game reasons for letting that happen, but it really just shows 4e is not perfectly balanced.

This one obviously kills your versimilitude. HP did it for me in 1980 so I took up Runequest. I have never been able to take D&D remotely serious as a simulation so I play it as a fine game.

If people want to say because thats what the book says fine. But people please spare me the he can only do rain of blows (insert encounter power) once because he needs an opening poop it just doesn't stand up to the eye ball test. I would say knocking you 15' and prone along with a stab would need be something you would see coming the next round and the round after etc etc.