D&D 5E How much should 5e aim at balance?

[LostSoul]

Most of the in-game divination spells should get the axe, or, at the least, they should be heavily nerfed.

I'd like to hear more.

 

[timASW]

Not. Even. Close. If a DM designs a dungeon with a lair guarded exclusively by golems and the wizards have any clue at all that this is going to be the case then only specialist evokers (already the weakest mages) are going to be slowed by the Spell Immunity.

Almost the entire Conjuration school ignores spell resistance and immunity. Which mean that four the unholy five combat conjurations (Grease, Web, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, and Evard's Black Tentacles) all work on golems with no questions asked. Stinking Cloud, of course fails because Golems are constructs. But also because Golems are constructs, they have terrible saving throws. Of the SRD listed ones, only the CR 16 42 Hit Dice giant stone golem has a save in excess of +6 - and for a CR 10 monster to have saves of +2 and +3 means they are going down like a chump to a low level spell like Glitterdust - even a humble Web will hold all except the big monster a few rounds.

The wizard is laughing at the golems, punking CR 10 monsters that were designed to be his bane with second level spells - and that without using all the versatility @Victim suggests (must spread XP around...) to simply avoid the golems above.

1. You missed the part where in the golem section it says that all golems are immune to magical and supernatural effects unless otherwise noted.

Grease? Covers a 10 foot area and has a DC10 balance check. Maybe you slowed him down. For one round, or 2. AND? You didnt win. You slowed him down.

Web? Must be anchored to 2 diametrically opposed points within 20ft of each other. Making it pretty much only useful in small corridors. And even then it doesnt beat the golem, it slows it for a round or two. A strength check lets you move 5 feet for every 5 points by which you beat a DC10 on a STR check. Most golems have no problem rolling a 15 or 20 on a STR check and gain it only affects a 20 foot area.

Glitterdust? In the MM do you see a weakness to glitterdust listed in any golems description? I dont. That means it doesnt work. See part 1.

Black tentacles can grapple them but cant actually HURT anything but a flesh golem. And that not very much.

So... you've slowed it down, and mildly annoyed the flesh golem.

How do you actually WIN? So far you didnt hurt squat and certianly didnt defeat them.



This is the biggest problem with people bagging on 3e. They never bothered to learn its rules and make mistakes. Then judge the system based on their mistakes.

 

[Magil]

1. You missed the part where in the golem section it says that all golems are immune to magical and supernatural effects unless otherwise noted.

"Magic immunity" is defined in each golem entry as only providing immunity to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. Those spells don't allow spell resistance, so they all work just fine. Even if you try to say the first entry supersedes the others, it obviously doesn't since it says "unless otherwise noted" and it is "otherwise noted" in every single entry below.

You are generally correct in those spells don't instantly kill the golems, but they generally render them non-threatening enough that the wizard's party can take them out.

 

[billd91]

1. You missed the part where in the golem section it says that all golems are immune to magical and supernatural effects unless otherwise noted.

<snip>

This is the biggest problem with people bagging on 3e. They never bothered to learn its rules and make mistakes. Then judge the system based on their mistakes.

Depends on whether or not you're playing 3.0 or 3.5. Golems in 3.0 were immune to most of those effects. But 3.5 nerfed their immunities down to being immune to spells and spell-like abilties that were subject to spell resistance. I'm not even entirely sure that was intentional. I have this nagging suspicion that they were just trying to be more precise with the language, but that may be an uncharitable reading of it.

 

[timASW]

"Magic immunity" is defined in each golem entry as only providing immunity to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. Those spells don't allow spell resistance, so they all work just fine. Even if you try to say the first entry supersedes the others, it obviously doesn't since it says "unless otherwise noted" and it is "otherwise noted" in every single entry below.

No its not, its noted in the entry for Golems in general as immunity to everything they are not specifically weak to. So unless they are listed as vulnerable to it in their specific entry they are immune to it. So unless you find; vulnerability GLITTERDUST or something similar in their specific entry it doesnt touch them.

You are generally correct in those spells don't instantly kill the golems, but they generally render them non-threatening enough that the wizard's party can take them out.

So those spells dont actually, in any way nerf the other members of the party. Rather they assist the other members of the party in stopping the golem from turning the wizard into an ugly bit of PC paste on the floor.

Yes?

And so rather then making the wizard superior to the other classes it actually makes him DEPENDENT (or inferior) to the other classes. Yes?

Because without them, sooner or later the golem catches him and makes wizard pizza. Right?

 

[timASW]

Depends on whether or not you're playing 3.0 or 3.5. Golems in 3.0 were immune to most of those effects. But 3.5 nerfed their immunities down to being immune to spells and spell-like abilties that were subject to spell resistance. I'm not even entirely sure that was intentional. I have this nagging suspicion that they were just trying to be more precise with the language, but that may be an uncharitable reading of it.

The language I quoted was copy and pasted from the 3.5 monster manual.

They are immune to any spell or supernatural ability unless otherwise stated in their entry. Period.

 

[Magil]

No its not, its noted in the entry for Golems in general as immunity to everything they are not specifically weak to. So unless they are listed as vulnerable to it in their specific entry they are immune to it. So unless you find; vulnerability GLITTERDUST or something similar in their specific entry it doesnt touch them.

Golem :: d20srd.org

"Immunity to Magic (Ex) A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below."


Repeat for each kind of golem listed.

So those spells dont actually, in any way nerf the other members of the party. Rather they assist the other members of the party in stopping the golem from turning the wizard into an ugly bit of PC paste on the floor.

Yes?

And so rather then making the wizard superior to the other classes it actually makes him DEPENDENT (or inferior) to the other classes. Yes?

Because without them, sooner or later the golem catches him and makes wizard pizza. Right?

Not so much. The other players could just as easily be wizards, and summon a few monsters to deal with the golem. It just means the wizard can't solo the golems if he's low enough level that he has to rely on mid-level spells to deal with them.

 

[Neonchameleon]

1. You missed the part where in the golem section it says that all golems are immune to magical and supernatural effects unless otherwise noted.

Grease? Covers a 10 foot area and has a DC10 balance check. Maybe you slowed him down. For one round, or 2. AND? You didnt win. You slowed him down.

Web? Must be anchored to 2 diametrically opposed points within 20ft of each other. Making it pretty much only useful in small corridors. And even then it doesnt beat the golem, it slows it for a round or two. A strength check lets you move 5 feet for every 5 points by which you beat a DC10 on a STR check. Most golems have no problem rolling a 15 or 20 on a STR check and gain it only affects a 20 foot area.

Glitterdust? In the MM do you see a weakness to glitterdust listed in any golems description? I dont. That means it doesnt work. See part 1.

Black tentacles can grapple them but cant actually HURT anything but a flesh golem. And that not very much.

So... you've slowed it down, and mildly annoyed the flesh golem.

How do you actually WIN? So far you didnt hurt squat and certianly didnt defeat them.



This is the biggest problem with people bagging on 3e. They never bothered to learn its rules and make mistakes. Then judge the system based on their mistakes.

OK.

Let's go by the actual 3.5 rules. The rules for Golems, not any houseruled version.

The rules for Golems are right here.

The actual rules for Golems immunity to magic are listed in two places.

The first place says

Immunity to Magic (Ex)

Golems have immunity to most magical and supernatural effects, except when otherwise noted.

​

Each type of Golem then proceeds to have its own description. In every single case this is clarified to read:

Immunity to Magic (Ex)

A [type] golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

​

Which means that Golems are vulnerable to spells that do not provide spell resistance. Because they don't hit the golem directly. (Incidently, this is standard spell immunity). That word most is important. Because most spells do allow Spell Resistance. Immunity to Magic is just another name for the standard term Spell Immunity.



This is different from the 3.0 golem which had the following text (taken from the Flesh Golem)

Special Ability
Magic Immunity (Ex): Flesh golems are immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects, except as follows. Fire- and cold-based effects slow them (as the spell) for 2d6 rounds, with no saving throw. An electricity effect breaks any slow effect on the golem and cures 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal. For example, a flesh golem hit by a lightning bolt cast by a 5th-level wizard gains back 6 hit points if the damage total is 18. The golem rolls no saving throw against electricity effects.
​

In the 3.0 case the golem is explicitely immune to all spells except where noted.


But in the 3.5 case it is entirely consistent that any specific golem listed is not immune to spells that don't allow SR. And indeed the clarified immunity to magic passage under each golem makes no sense if they are actually immune to spells like Glitterdust. First the word most (an explicit change from 3.0) is entirely redundant if your reading is correct. Second, there is no point explicitely calling spells that allow spell resistance if the golem is intended to be immune to all spells.

 

[billd91]

The language I quoted was copy and pasted from the 3.5 monster manual.

They are immune to any spell or supernatural ability unless otherwise stated in their entry. Period.

That text in the introductory part of the golem section is mostly a 3.0 holdover that never got sufficiently updated. The specific rules in each golem section are definitely weaker than the 3.0 text and would be most applicable. Yours is the less likely interpretation of the 3.5 designers' intent.

 

[timASW]

Golem :: d20srd.org

"Immunity to Magic (Ex) A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.".

MM trumps SRD. I win.

And the relevant entry is under golems general. Before the specific golems entry.

its an order of operations thing. The general entry for all golems says nothing works unless specified otherwise.

then the specific entries say this or that particular thing works or doesnt and in such way.

But unless the specific monster entry lists a spell specifically as working in a certain way it DOESNT WORK. Because the entry for ALL GOLEMS says so.

So sorry but you werent playing by the rules when you pulled that crap on golems before and your GM who allowed it was either houseruling or didnt know the rules.

Not so much. The other players could just as easily be wizards, and summon a few monsters to deal with the golem. It just means the wizard can't solo the golems if he's low enough level that he has to rely on mid-level spells to deal with them.

Very few summoned monsters can even scratch the paint of a decent golem. They mean nothing but meat shields in combat and accomplish nothing against it but buying you time.

What else do you have?