D&D 4E JamesonCourage Is Starting A 4e Game; Looking For Pointers

[JamesonCourage]

One tendency I had at the beginning of 4e was to scale all encounters to be "level appropriate" up to "Level +4". I disregarded that encounters should also play in the opposite direction down to Level-2. So encounters should be from a range of Level-2 up to Level+4.

Noted!

If you're simply taking out some "insignificant guards", use a few of them (2-3) at Level-2. This makes that encounter play as planned. It is insignificant guards, not super guards, and it should play as such.

I was thinking of them being about on par with the party level-wise for stuff like this, but just being minions. As the party levels, I'll reevaluate that and take your advise of "Level-2" into account.

When the party is taking on the "King under the mountain" and his troops then you can use a Level+4 encounter. But be warned you will have to "play with this", and adjust a bit until you arrive at your and your players comfort level.

I'm actually looking forward to that

I recommend hardly ever using single monsters of level+x to arrive at the Level+X "budget". This causes grind because they are usually harder to hit, and at some point can become rather boring. Keep your eye out for that, specially if you will have a small party. IMO, this combat grind more than anything else will be what makes or breaks the game. You don't want your players bored during combat, so make it exciting, but pace it so that it ends at an appropriate point/time.

I'm also looking forward to perfecting these types of encounters.

When the foregone conclusion is that the monster is defeated, end the encounter by the monster retreating or dying. Hacking at it for another 3-4 rounds because people are missing, or the creature still has 100hp out of 400Hp is super boring. Avoid at all costs.

I'll keep this in mind. It goes against my instinct, but I'll definitely take all the input I get here into account when making decisions.

My most important discovery was that my job as DM was to carefully gauge and maintain pacing during the game. The rules be damned at that point if they are not helping. I want my players excited, not bored.

Yep, pacing is a big deal. Thanks for the tips

 

[JamesonCourage]

First of all the background stories of these characters are very good starting points. Definitely use these are starting points for the campaign.

Yep, I'm pretty happy with how their characters turned out. Right now, I'm thinking maybe a Tiefling Warlock that has an Infernal pact sent by Asmodeus to help out from time to time, and tempt the Monk. I'm also toying with the Wizard magic item, some sort of creature / spirit sent from Kord, or something sent from the Raven Queen. Lots of stuff that would make it feel personal to the players, and maybe help make it "make sense" within the themes they picked.

I can already think of meeting other ex-cons, encounters with undead that have to be "saved", and conflicts with dwarves because of having an outcast in their midst. Well done to you and your players, this I like A LOT.

Me too! I was very pleasantly surprised with what they came up with. I haven't played with them before, but I really like how they each have a tie to a god, as it helped engage the fiction of 4e. Also, the Backgrounds / Themes were a good starting point for a lot of this, so props for the creators for making them an option, as I think it definitely helped flesh out the characters and connect the group.

As for party composition I can almost feel that they will have a slow time of combats, unless you adjust. You have a straight defender, a leader/defender, and a striker/controller. All of these are awesome but they will do average damage, which means that combats might take longer. Nothing wrong with that but be prepared. So my first recommendation would be the Slayer NPC. However, I would not tie him/her to the Amanda Character. She already has the Rick character as a "guardian". Tie the NPC to the Rick, or Daniel characters. Maybe it's another dwarf outcast, or a barbarian from the horde that likes nothing better than sending souls to the Raven Queen.

I don't mind the Slayer class being thrown in, but I don't think I want a full-time NPC. Maybe someone to pop in during combat. So, maybe a Slayer sent by Kord (tied to Rick more than Amanda?), or the like, or another character sent by the Raven Queen (tied to Daniel) that helps move souls along. Again, I was thinking maybe a Warlock, too, and that would be a tie to Amanda. Lots of options.

Any ideas from a story-perspective (that keeps the mechanics in mind)? I'm looking for part-time NPCs that are mainly around for combat. I can see someone sent by Kord or the Raven Queen fitting this pretty easily, and I'm sure I can make something work on the Infernal side, too, with little effort. I think maybe striking the Kord / Raven Queen chords might be better for now, though. I can always save the Infernal bit for something a little less nice

I would play for a bit with those 4 and see how it goes. Though I would recommend you design everything for 3 instead of 4. After you see how it plays adjust to taste. The 4th NPC, if you use a companion character, will be a .5 character and not a full character so the adjustment might work better.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

I'll probably make a full character, but something like a Slayer is pretty straightforward if I go for that option (something in its favor). I'll definitely let you know how it goes, though.

P.S. I've noticed that many here have mentioned the "improv" cards. That, above all recommendations, is one thing that I would definitely do. Specially for the 1e player.

A long time ago, I wrote a piece describing the "why" for the issue. I think it would be rude to simply copy and paste it here. So if you are interested in a good reason for it you can read the article here.

I think I will be handing the card out, though Daniel won't be using cards (he printed the cards, but keeps them in a plastic sleeve, and just checks them off as he uses them). I'll make sure to include it for the other players, and while Daniel may not have it as an option, he's the most experienced, so hopefully he won't need it as much. Thanks for the ideas and support. I'm looking forward to running things

 

[D'karr]

I don't mind the Slayer class being thrown in, but I don't think I want a full-time NPC. Maybe someone to pop in during combat. So, maybe a Slayer sent by Kord (tied to Rick more than Amanda?), or the like, or another character sent by the Raven Queen (tied to Daniel) that helps move souls along. Again, I was thinking maybe a Warlock, too, and that would be a tie to Amanda. Lots of options.

Any ideas from a story-perspective (that keeps the mechanics in mind)? I'm looking for part-time NPCs that are mainly around for combat. I can see someone sent by Kord or the Raven Queen fitting this pretty easily, and I'm sure I can make something work on the Infernal side, too, with little effort. I think maybe striking the Kord / Raven Queen chords might be better for now, though. I can always save the Infernal bit for something a little less nice

I'm thinking that a barbarian devotee of the Raven Queen would work great. He shows up during combat because his "mission" is to send her the souls of the fallen, and he doesn't want to miss the fun of making them fallen.

I'll probably make a full character, but something like a Slayer is pretty straightforward if I go for that option (something in its favor). I'll definitely let you know how it goes, though.

From my experience a companion character works great because of its extremely low overhead. Designing a full character just to have a 4th "combatant" is a waste of time IMO. You have more important, and significant things to do as a DM. And with a full character somebody has "too many" options to think about. Either you will be running it, or another player will be running it, and that is overhead not needed. Companion Characters, particularly a Slayer, are designed for extreme ease of use - hardly any options included. He comes into combat, hits once or three times and goes away. Nothing complicated there so I would not make a complicated character. YMMV.

I think I will be handing the card out, though Daniel won't be using cards (he printed the cards, but keeps them in a plastic sleeve, and just checks them off as he uses them). I'll make sure to include it for the other players, and while Daniel may not have it as an option, he's the most experienced, so hopefully he won't need it as much. Thanks for the ideas and support. I'm looking forward to running things

For our group the card simply served as a constant reminder. I found out it worked well because it reminded players that there are other things they can "make up" instead of limiting themselves to the writing on the cards. It also helped because I didn't have to keep reminding them.

This seems like a fun group.

 

[Storminator]

I can see 8 X 10 feeling small, but 10 X 12 is decent (to me), 12 X 15 is pretty good, and 18 X 20 just seems huge. Again, to me. But I haven't had anything more than me playing out encounters, so I can't say for sure yet.

Starting to beat the dead horse . . .

Now you have another consideration. You have a Monk in the party. Almost every Monk power has a movement power with it. Your monk gets a lot of her crazy cool from moving everywhere. So give her places to move to!

You'll figure it out as you go.

PS

 

[Pseudopsyche]

Any ideas from a story-perspective (that keeps the mechanics in mind)? I'm looking for part-time NPCs that are mainly around for combat. I can see someone sent by Kord or the Raven Queen fitting this pretty easily, and I'm sure I can make something work on the Infernal side, too, with little effort. I think maybe striking the Kord / Raven Queen chords might be better for now, though. I can always save the Infernal bit for something a little less nice

How about some kind of divine artifact, a sacred relic of Kord, that can summon a fierce warrior some number of times per day? Perhaps some kind of war horn that summons valkyrie-like warrior maidens. The summoned warrior can become more powerful as the PCs level up and their concordance with the artifact increases.

Optional: the artifact was actually created by Asmodeus. Its goals include advancing promising adventures along the path of strength -> power -> corruption. Every time the horn is used, or perhaps whenever the summoned warrior is slain, some horrible fate befalls an innocent somewhere else in the world.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I'm thinking that a barbarian devotee of the Raven Queen would work great. He shows up during combat because his "mission" is to send her the souls of the fallen, and he doesn't want to miss the fun of making them fallen.

Hmm, I think if I go for the more "doesn't want to miss the fun" feel, I'll make it a follower of Kord. I think I want something a bit more layered for any follower of the Raven Queen. I'll look into the Barbarian, though.

From my experience a companion character works great because of its extremely low overhead. Designing a full character just to have a 4th "combatant" is a waste of time IMO. You have more important, and significant things to do as a DM. And with a full character somebody has "too many" options to think about. Either you will be running it, or another player will be running it, and that is overhead not needed. Companion Characters, particularly a Slayer, are designed for extreme ease of use - hardly any options included. He comes into combat, hits once or three times and goes away. Nothing complicated there so I would not make a complicated character. YMMV.

I'll look into it. It's been mentioned a couple times, and you guys know the system better than I do

For our group the card simply served as a constant reminder. I found out it worked well because it reminded players that there are other things they can "make up" instead of limiting themselves to the writing on the cards. It also helped because I didn't have to keep reminding them.

Maybe I'll print one out for him and slip it into his plastic sleeve, so that he can see it alongside the other powers.

This seems like a fun group.

I'm definitely even more optimistic about it after we sat down and made some characters. We'll see how it goes, but I'm hoping only good things. Thanks for all the advice that will hopefully make it even smoother!

Now you have another consideration. You have a Monk in the party. Almost every Monk power has a movement power with it. Your monk gets a lot of her crazy cool from moving everywhere. So give her places to move to!

Yeah, and she is pretty excited about them. She has an encounter power that lets her fly for 1 round, and she's really looking forward to using that. I think I'll be okay as far as including interesting places to move, but I might be surprised at how much room she needs.

You'll figure it out as you go.

Yep. Thanks for the advice

 

[JamesonCourage]

How about some kind of divine artifact, a sacred relic of Kord, that can summon a fierce warrior some number of times per day? Perhaps some kind of war horn that summons valkyrie-like warrior maidens. The summoned warrior can become more powerful as the PCs level up and their concordance with the artifact increases.

I like it! It's like a better take on my Wizard In A Staff idea! Thanks, I'm definitely leaning towards something like this now (XP sent your way)

Optional: the artifact was actually created by Asmodeus. Its goals include advancing promising adventures along the path of strength -> power -> corruption. Every time the horn is used, or perhaps whenever the summoned warrior is slain, some horrible fate befalls an innocent somewhere else in the world.

Hmm, maybe something like this. I think that the "horrible fate befalls an innocent" thing may not scare the players too much (they're all Unaligned and have some pretty selfish intentions), but they surprised me last night when we made characters, so who knows?

Though, I do lean towards the artifact being purely from Kord, if I go that route. I don't want to corrupt their connection to their god (at least, not at the start of the game!). Maybe if the summon warrior is slain, the horn breaks, and an agent of Asmodeus offers to fix it (and adds that bit in). It'd keep the summoned warrior around (maybe multi-classed as a Warlock, or a full-fledged one?), and they'd later find out that they're partly responsible for the side effects. There's a certain cause and effect design there that I like, and it'll tie Amanda's back story into the current arc (whenever that is).

Or, alternatively, when the warrior dies, the Raven Queen can send the warrior back as a Revenant (with maybe a new class?). That could tie the Cleric's back story into the Monk's and the Fighter's back story, which could be quite interesting. I do really like the "summoned warrior" artifact at the start, though. That could be very cool, so thanks again for the idea

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION]
I would not do the extra NPCs for now, at least while you guys learn the game. There's enough to keep track of in combat as it is, and its also not necessary to have a 5-person party to balance things. Check out this DDi article about party building: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20090320

 

[Manbearcat]

So, the question I'll currently be answering:

For the three full time players, here's what we got tonight:

<snip>

As of this point, I'm debating what I want to do for the other two "NPCs" in the party, and I'm open to suggestions. I'm thinking a magic item that can manifest during conflicts might be an option for one, but I'm not sure. Maybe some sort of intelligent Wizard's staff with the intelligence of the Wizard in it? Daniel's Cleric is trained in Arcana, so I might let be the one to summon his essence out (adding a controller to their side). I was also considering letting Amanda's character unconsciously manifest a protector of some sort (maybe a Fighter [Slayer]?) that would protect her and her allies in combat (by going on the offensive), but she made a Monk, so now I'm reconsidering. Maybe something related to the Raven Queen, Kord, or the Monk's Infernal lineage?

Any feedback on the characters / party dynamics / ideas for the two pseudo-NPCs? Any at all? All feedback is welcome!

First, clearly you have excellent players with respect to building coherent, thematically rich characters. Great set of characters there. I'll just say a few things and pose a few questions.

1 - With respect to groupo makeup, @D'karr provided a lot of commentary that is in line with my thoughts. You have a very stout, very control-heavy group; all of those characters have survivability of their own, the Fighter and Warpriest both have a lot of great control and the Monk is basically a melee controller/striker hybrid. One thing you can do to up the damage of the group on your own is frequent Fighter Mark/Aura violation. You don't want to do it futilely, you want to provide them with a fully legitimate challenge, but when you have an opportunity to truly lay the smack down on the Monk (or even the Cleric), go for it and violate that mark. A Fighter can easily produce Striker level damage with frequent Mark/aura violation and obviously that will improve group DPR dramatically (just don't do it when the OA has the potentially to kill the bad guy).

2 - This group is a tailor made to fight hordes of minions. You can have visceral, exciting combat for just these 3 characters if you create minion heavy encounters with a good Leader (or 2) to buff them and force/multiply their offense/defense/mobility. It will challenge the players, let them play to their strength (multi-attacks, control, stoutness), and it won't highlight their weak point (lack of striker damage to take hefty chunks off of HP-heavy monsters).

3 - I also agree with D'karr about creating a companion character versus playing a full time character. The low mental overhead and ease of building a legitimate striker with a companion character is very appealing. You don't need to have it for every fight. It can just be background color or manifest solely in those fights that aren't minion heavy and/or the n + 2 and above/BBEG fights with HP-heavy brutes, elites, solos (that you can budget for 4 PC and get more bang for your buck with that budget). I like both your idea (with the aspect of Asmodeus manifesting in their time of need as a promise of power to the monk) and @Pseudopsyche idea with the religious relic (horn, etc) that summons a Valkyrie in their time of need. Either (or both, no reason that you can't use them interchangeably as you deem it thematically fitting) can easily be created as a Companion Character Striker (or if you're hell bent on it, you can make a full character). If you want to do the Companion Character for them, I could write up both of them with no trouble. If you want to write up the full character, I would (as was put forth) recommend the Slayer for the Valkyrie (maybe refluffed Eladrin as race) and either Elementalist Sorcerer or Warlock for the aspect of Asmodeus.

4 - Regarding non-combat conflict resolution:

a - Warpriest taking Ritual Caster?
b - Monk or Fighter taking Ritual Caster or Martial Practices? There are great ones for both and some really good Martial Practices to help round out Archetypes (regardless of class, you can make an incredible Ranger with Martial Practices, Nature, Perception, and/or Stealth)
c - What are the respective Skills (or more specifically, who is covering Thievery, Nature, History, Streetwise)?
d - Anyone planning on dedicating feats or Utilities to Skill Powers for Skill Challenges (that would be a good idea if you're planning on running a lot of them). There are tons of great Skill Powers and Utility Powers to further Skill Challenge resolution.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I would not do the extra NPCs for now, at least while you guys learn the game. There's enough to keep track of in combat as it is, and its also not necessary to have a 5-person party to balance things. Check out this DDi article about party building: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20090320

Cool, thanks for the link! But I do plan on adding at least 1 more to the party from the start (though something potentially very simple, like a Companion Slayer). I'll make sure to take the article into account, though

First, clearly you have excellent players with respect to building coherent, thematically rich characters. Great set of characters there.

Thanks We all played off of each other, and I tried to let them make up as much of their back story without saying "no" as much as possible. I let their decisions shape my setting quite a bit, too (like, I know we'll be starting in a city to fit in with Amanda's goal, and I added the Mul as a subrace of dwarves when I wasn't planning on adding them at all).

I'll just say a few things and pose a few questions.

Awesome, I'm game.

1 - With respect to groupo makeup, @D'karr provided a lot of commentary that is in line with my thoughts. You have a very stout, very control-heavy group; all of those characters have survivability of their own, the Fighter and Warpriest both have a lot of great control and the Monk is basically a melee controller/striker hybrid. One thing you can do to up the damage of the group on your own is frequent Fighter Mark/Aura violation. You don't want to do it futilely, you want to provide them with a fully legitimate challenge, but when you have an opportunity to truly lay the smack down on the Monk (or even the Cleric), go for it and violate that mark. A Fighter can easily produce Striker level damage with frequent Mark/aura violation and obviously that will improve group DPR dramatically (just don't do it when the OA has the potentially to kill the bad guy).

The more I play tested some encounters on my own, the more I started to violate the defender aura. The aura is very effective as trying to tempt me from shifting / moving away / attacking others, but it seems like it's one of the Fighter's few abilities (since he's a Knight), and I do want to make him feel his abilities are useful. I won't give them a lot of free stuff, but I might take some risks with some enemies and see what happens.

And yes, the Fighter / Cleric both seem pretty survivable. The monk less so, though she has some pretty cool powers. The superior movement might make up somewhat for having lower defenses / lower HP.

2 - This group is a tailor made to fight hordes of minions. You can have visceral, exciting combat for just these 3 characters if you create minion heavy encounters with a good Leader (or 2) to buff them and force/multiply their offense/defense/mobility. It will challenge the players, let them play to their strength (multi-attacks, control, stoutness), and it won't highlight their weak point (lack of striker damage to take hefty chunks off of HP-heavy monsters).

I don't know about hordes yet, but I do plan to use minions pretty much every fight (though not every fight), which is why I think the Fighter will swap a power next level for the cleaving stance. But yeah, I'm thinking at least 4 minions on average in each fight, with some more and some less.

3 - I also agree with D'karr about creating a companion character versus playing a full time character. The low mental overhead and ease of building a legitimate striker with a companion character is very appealing. You don't need to have it for every fight. It can just be background color or manifest solely in those fights that aren't minion heavy and/or the n + 2 and above/BBEG fights with HP-heavy brutes, elites, solos (that you can budget for 4 PC and get more bang for your buck with that budget).

This is pretty much why I want a 4th character to be pretty constant; I want to be able to use more combinations of enemies in the game, including solos! I already have one made, and I'd like to see how it goes, but I definitely don't want to use it on less than 4 characters.

I like both your idea (with the aspect of Asmodeus manifesting in their time of need as a promise of power to the monk) and Pseudopsyche idea with the religious relic (horn, etc) that summons a Valkyrie in their time of need. Either (or both, no reason that you can't use them interchangeably as you deem it thematically fitting) can easily be created as a Companion Character Striker (or if you're hell bent on it, you can make a full character).

I'll go for the companion character, since that seems to be the overwhelmingly popular bit of advice on the matter. But I do like both ideas, too.

If you want to do the Companion Character for them, I could write up both of them with no trouble. If you want to write up the full character, I would (as was put forth) recommend the Slayer for the Valkyrie (maybe refluffed Eladrin as race) and either Elementalist Sorcerer or Warlock for the aspect of Asmodeus.

If you want to give me a companion Slayer, that's the way I'm leaning right now. I already made a Slayer (which seems very simple), but I'm curious what a companion character will look like in place.

4 - Regarding non-combat conflict resolution:

a - Warpriest taking Ritual Caster?

He did not, no. Just checked my account. As far as I know, it wasn't even an option, unless he wanted to spend his level 1 feat on it.

b - Monk or Fighter taking Ritual Caster or Martial Practices? There are great ones for both and some really good Martial Practices to help round out Archetypes (regardless of class, you can make an incredible Ranger with Martial Practices, Nature, Perception, and/or Stealth)

Nope, none of these, either. They both felt kinda overwhelmed with the amount of feats. The Monk took Crashing Tempest Style since she's wielding a club in one hand (it's reflavored as a hammer, and it's the same hammer she used when she was imprisoned and working hard labor). The Fighter multi-classed into Paladin.

c - What are the respective Skills (or more specifically, who is covering Thievery, Nature, History, Streetwise)?

Nobody has Nature, History, or Streetwise.

Monk: Bluff, Insight, Stealth, Thievery.
Warpriest: Arcana, Diplomacy, Heal, Religion.
Fighter: Athletics, Endurance, Heal, Intimidate.

The Warpriest did almost take History, but decided to take Arcana when I told him it'd likely come up more often (though I did say that both will be useful). He mentioned maybe taking it later, but the others didn't mention other skills.

d - Anyone planning on dedicating feats or Utilities to Skill Powers for Skill Challenges (that would be a good idea if you're planning on running a lot of them). There are tons of great Skill Powers and Utility Powers to further Skill Challenge resolution.

I don't think they know yet. I certainly don't. I think they plan to wing it as they go along, though the Monk is looking forward to the power that lets her lessen / ignore harsh terrain and walk on water for a turn (I think; that's what she told the group, but I didn't check the power, as we were just making characters).

I did tell them that skills will be important, and that I like using them. So, after one or two sessions, I might have a better feel for where they're going, or how they'd like to advance.

Anyways, thanks for the feedback. I'm looking forward to seeing that companion character, and hearing your thoughts on the other bits you asked about. You're all so helpful