Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

[Wicht]

At no point did I say you could use the Wishes to chain cast 9th level spells, though I suppose you could Wish for scrolls of Astral Projection if you were so inclined.

You are misunderstanding, Astral Projection, as a 9th level spell, cannot be used, of itself, to power a Wish spell, which is also 9th level.

Now here's the interesting question: What is the basis in the rules for that interpretation?

The wording of the PF Wish spell.

I have no doubt that is how you would rule to make Astral Projection less balanced, but that is not what the spell says. The spell says that it creates copies of you and your equipment. Items with charges will then be copied, to be used in the normal fashion.

If it helps, think about the Astral body; when it takes damage, the wizard's original body does not take damage. If the Astral Projection takes lethal damage, the spell ends and the wizard wakes up from his coma. His body's hit points are not linked to his Astral Projection's hit points. Explain to me why the charges in his item would be linked to the charges in his Astral Projection's possession?

I think that, ideally, the power for the effect in the astral plane must come from somewhere, and the logical place is that they come from the original items. I would point out that the rules could use some clarity here, but it is against the spirit of the Magic Rules for a 9th level spell to power other, multiple, 9th level spells.

Ruling that the effects are temporary, or that the charges of the original item are used up, is going beyond what is written. Just because you can fix it doesn't mean it isn't broken; in fact, it is usually a sign that something is broken.

Actually, I think that ruling that the effects of the magic items was only temporary (in some cases anyway) is quite in the spirit of the spell; I just prefer the other choice better.

Just like with Wall of Iron, which creates an amount of iron that sells for far more than the material component of the spell costs. The DM can always rule that, perhaps, the iron is very low quality, or that the market value of iron is different than what is written in the books, but that doesn't change the fact that, as written, any mid level wizard has the ability to become a steel magnate.

I have a very good story (I like it anyway), that I have written about the so called 10 foot pole/ladder cheat. I might dig it up and link to it.

 

[Wicht]

He should not have to do so and issue a tortured interpretation for a core spell in the revised version of 3.0 edition, which is ostensibly a finished product by a serious company full of professionals being sold for money.

Heh. You're accusing my suggested ruling as "tortured." That seems harsh. I thought it was pretty reasonable myself.

 

[Wicht]

Just because someone mentioned iron walls and it made me think of ladders and 10 foot poles: The 2000 Ladders of Jalk Suretoe

 

[N'raac]

1. Grab an Luckblade.
2. Cast Astral Projection.
3. Use up the wishes.
4. Dismiss Astral Projection.
5. Repeat steps 2-4.
6. ???
7. Profit.

What are you wishing FOR?

By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether.
You can bring the astral forms of other willing creatures with you, provided that these subjects are linked in a circle with you at the time of the casting. These fellow travelers are dependent upon you and must accompany you at all times. If something happens to you during the journey, your companions are stranded wherever you left them.

You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.

While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord. When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body. If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes.

You and your companions may travel through the Astral Plane indefinitely. Your bodies simply wait behind in a state of suspended animation until you choose to return your spirits to them. The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).

I would note that you manifest your new equipment on the other plane you have chosen to arrive at. Nothing says anything you acquire on that other plane remains with you when you return home. As damage doesn't transmit back, presumably no other change, for good or ill, would transmit back. I suppose you could Astral Project back, but then your real body is still in suspended animation.

At least as reasonable an interpretation as "I can get infinite wishes".

 

[Wicht]

I would note that you manifest your new equipment on the other plane you have chosen to arrive at. Nothing says anything you acquire on that other plane remains with you when you return home. As damage doesn't transmit back, presumably no other change, for good or ill, would transmit back. I suppose you could Astral Project back, but then your real body is still in suspended animation.

At least as reasonable an interpretation as "I can get infinite wishes".

So you go for my option #2, all effects generated by the wish vanish when you return to your normal state. My rationale for going with the other was I could see more complications arising this way, for instance if a wish was used to resurrect some fallen hero of old, that hero would return to dead as soon as the astral spell was complete. By having the astral copy drain the real item, the effects can last (depending on what they are - some will obviously vanish or become inconsequential, such as using healing potions to heal up the astral body) but the 1 use items provide the 1 use you paid for, so to speak.

Pay once, benefit twice (or more) seems to be a wrongheaded way to approach 1 use magic items.

 

[Nagol]

What are you wishing FOR?



I would note that you manifest your new equipment on the other plane you have chosen to arrive at. Nothing says anything you acquire on that other plane remains with you when you return home. As damage doesn't transmit back, presumably no other change, for good or ill, would transmit back. I suppose you could Astral Project back, but then your real body is still in suspended animation.

At least as reasonable an interpretation as "I can get infinite wishes".

Project to the astral plane . Have one of your friends meet you there via Plane Shift. Greater Teleport to him and let him take possession of the wish results -- if the results are even physical -- good uses of stuff like this is knowledge, visions, inherent bonuses in your friends, etc. 25k in cash is OK if you need something to cover some bills or something, but it's not anything to write home about.

 

[Nagol]

Using the Pathfinder Wish spell, you cannot get unlimited wishes. The spell is powerful, but explicitly not that powerful. Other avenues for wishes exist, but they all have some element of risk.

I was thinking of some prestige classes that grant access to free-ish wishes. I recall a Dweomer-keeper/Runesmith character that got 7 wishes a day without xp cost by 21st level unless revised. There are other ways in 3.5 as well.

 

[Dwimmerlied]

Ruling that the effects are temporary, or that the charges of the original item are used up, is going beyond what is written. Just because you can fix it doesn't mean it isn't broken; in fact, it is usually a sign that something is broken.

Just like with Wall of Iron, which creates an amount of iron that sells for far more than the material component of the spell costs. The DM can always rule that, perhaps, the iron is very low quality, or that the market value of iron is different than what is written in the books, but that doesn't change the fact that, as written, any mid level wizard has the ability to become a steel magnate.

Is this the strength of the evidence that the system is broken? These points are so easy to address that I find it hard to believe that they are being used as evidence for a broken system. With such a diverse system with so many components its not surprising that creative, intelligent and observant people can find ways to break the system. [MENTION=221]Wicht[/MENTION]'s solutions aren't unreasonable.

 

[Dwimmerlied]

I don't think the goal is to somehow convince each other, but at least we can look at what we think, and have it picked apart by others who disagree to make sure we really believe it. Plus, it can serve to be enlightening to others reading the thread. I know similar threads led me to embrace 4e when I had serious reservations before its release.

My xp awarding powers are too capped...

 

[Nagol]

I'm not sure you understood how I would rule on this. I would play that the copy is powered by the original, so that if you drank your potion, when you went back, you had a vial full of water (or something inert), if you used your scrolls and went back, you had a blank sheet of paper, if you use your luck blade wishes, when you get back, your wishes have been used.

While yours is a perfectly fine house-rule, 3.5's version of Astral Projection simply says you create copies of equipment. The problem with non-specific ambiguous language is you get a lousy specification. The problem with lousy specifications is misaligned expectations.

Earlier editions controlled it by effectively making most of the gear non-magical off the Prime Material Plane.

Your suggestion that no one traveling astrally can cast any other 9th level magic is interesting, but less supportable since there is no discussion of any casting restriction under the spell effect.