D&D 5E So, 5e OGL

[GMforPowergamers]

My point isn't really about Paizo - they were just the company that ended up doing it. My point is about the impact an indefinite OGL has on WOTC in the long term.

have you ever heard of the diffusion of innovations?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations

I think the real damage of the OGL to D&D (and the rpg scene as a whole) is there...

when 2e switched to 3e innovators jumped on right away when dragon was doing the lead up articles, I remember being weary myself at the time, and a lot of people in my college gameing club where bad mouthing WotC saying "I don't want to play Magic the D&D rip off"

Early adaptors bought the book the first month, I only knew 1 person other then myself, even though I had 40+ gamers in my group back then. Early Majority came a little later with my first game when less then 1/3 of my group were even willing to try the system... I knew people still playing 2e a year later who didn't want to even look at the books, late majority though was a large swath of those players though. At that point the books like sword and fist and dfenders of the faith started to sway people... the very idea of prestige classes came into it's own and people who had gone 2-3 years with out a lot of new stuff started saying "well lets give it a fair shot atleast" by the time 3.5 books where out at gen con almost everyone I knew was buying D20 books.

now going back as I understand the transition from 1e to 2e went a lot the same for the 2 groups I know of.

now lets look at 4e...

I was sold on 4e as an innovator... 3e was already pretty dead in my eyes and I was ready for 3e before it's announcement. I bought those preview books and was trying to get a 4e game togather when I heard of the keep of the shadow fell book came out. Now my group was abit smaller by then we had about 30 of us... It fell almost along the same lines as 8 years earlier though... some wanted to stay with 3.5 (almost an exact dup of the people who wanted to stay with 2e) the early adaptors made a game... the early majority is where we hit our snag. See by then I was testing pathfinder... at this point in the 2-3e half our games were 3e and half where 2e and those of us that liked 3e would talk it up... but something changed here.

see I would play a playtest game and talk about how 4e did something... and be told bad things sometimes untrue sometimes just baseless wotc attacks... and as such that number was smaller... then a lot of people who where late majority last time, this time said "Why switch I can keep getting books here..." where last time that option did not exsist.

people who dislike change and wait until the last minute... never had a last minute. The peer reviews were split between a slight revamp and a whole relaunch... and the edition war raged harder then ever.


There was a 2e 3rd party set of books (not legaly) called Mayfair games. I remember that back then they had a very thin vener of there system. If they could have wiggled into making more and more 2e suppliments I know for a fact my group would have fractured back then... but instead Tsr/WotC suied them and shut them down, and moved on.

 

[SkidAce]

You are deeply unaware of what happened if you think that is how it went down. There was a MASSIVE fracture in the community at the time.

Even though I am on the pro OGL side, I can confirm this for [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION]. Times were rough.

 

[Morrus]

but instead Tsr/WotC suied them and shut them down, and moved on.

No. The lawsuit was unsuccessful. TSR bought the trademark rights off Mayfair later. Mayfair closed down 4 years after the lawsuit for entirely different reasons, and were purchased by ICE. And, of course, today Mayfair publishes very successful board games.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

I started playing in 2e, and my group continued until after the 1st set of 3.5 complete books were out.

the first 3e phb I bought was on shelf next to Complete Arcane, and Complete Warrior. If someone had continued to make 2e products we would never have switched.

I wasn't "won over" by WotC either, it was just the fact that the DM in our group wanted to buy new things and was falling in love with D20, so when the game ended no one was running 2e around me at the time...


I was a couple years into 4e before I tried it either... and it was hella easier to find 3e and pathfinder games then 2e ones a few years earlier. 4e actually won me over where 3e eat away my gameing group...


I right now am playing in a heavily house ruled 1e game... but even that almost all the players own 2e, 3e, and 4e books and chopped out parts they like (including making prestige classes and feats for 1e)

I am also enjoying my Myth and Magic (a 2e retro clone) and waiting for 5e. I have 0 intrest in going back to 3e or 3.5 or pathfinder, I might dabble in 4e a bit, but 5e,2e, and this not really 1e game are great...

I agree the OGL helped force us into 3e, and made it so that 3e was around forever. I don't know nore will I pretend to know if that is good or bad over all, but I wish 2e was OGL and I never had to try 3e... for what it was worth.

No. The lawsuit was unsuccessful. TSR bought the trademark rights off Mayfair later. Mayfair closed down 4 years after the lawsuit for entirely different reasons, and were purchased by ICE. And, of course, today Mayfair publishes very successful board games.

I can tell you that is how I remember it as well, but I lost my old archmage and half demon books to an ex boyfriend, anyone know of a legal way to get those old books as pdfs?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No. The lawsuit was unsuccessful. TSR bought the trademark rights off Mayfair later. Mayfair closed down 4 years after the lawsuit for entirely different reasons, and were purchased by ICE. And, of course, today Mayfair publishes very successful board games.

ok, we are talking almost 20 years ago, my memory may be a bit faulty...

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

You are mistaking what I meant by smooth transition. That point had nothing to do with how easy it was for a group to move from one edition to another within their campaign. I was referring to what happens to the fan community with each transition - it fractures each time, causing fewer people to move to the new edition each time, and causing more strife in the community each time. That's what I meant about non-smooth transitions. It goes easier for WOTC if support ends for the prior edition - the incentive is there for everyone to move to the new edition much stronger.

There are still lots of people bitter about the end of support for 3.5 directly from WOTC, and who do not see Pathfinder as an improvement on 3.5. I don't necessarily agree with them, but there are plenty of them, and that's just with micro-changes to a single edition and not an actual new edition. Each time, there is a fracture - and any time support remains for the prior edition, the fracture is made worse. From WOTCs perspective that is a bad thing.

I understood what you meant, and that's what I was referring to. The transition from 3.0 to 3.5, and the subsequent transition from 3.5 to Pathfinder have been smooth by RPG standards. The backlash against and adoption of the new editions was nothing compared to that of the 2.0 to 3.0 shift, or the similar shifts in games like Shadowrun or World of Darkness.

 

[darjr]

Ah but please look at the common thing in some of these posts.

People stopped playing, the groups shrunk, 2e folks where tired of 2e even though there was an alternative that won the rights to continue.

A good game (and I agree, 4e was a good game) that doesn't turn over the cart can and will be successful regardless of the OGL and maybe even because of it.

all you have to do is look at Pathfinder, it isn't 3.5. Close but different enough that there are people who play 3.5 and don't play pathfinder because of those differences.

finally, forcing folks to change editions, it isn't a straw man. It's one of the reasons TSR sued Mayfair, it's one of the reasons 4e was so different. Getting people to do something they wouldn't otherwise do is the definition of force.

Mistwell I know we won't agree on the OGL, that's fine, I'm done trying to convince you. It was good for Wotc and could have been of great benefit going into 'a' kind of 4e. In hubris someone at wotc thought they could let go of the tigers tail. They got bit.

Also I'm not under any illusion that wotc would show up at folks homes and make them play at gunpoint. They would use the power they had, which I agree isn't anything more than any corporation with products has.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

finally, forcing folks to change editions, it isn't a straw man. It's the reason TSR sued Mayfair, it's the reason 4e was so different. Getting people to do something they wouldn't otherwise do is the definition of force.

I disagree, the reason 4e is so different is because they were truing something new...

 

[darjr]

I disagree, the reason 4e is so different is because they were truing something new...

I agree, not totally, that in part they were, I don't agree that it was THE reason. The designers were trying, in good faith, to innovate and I applaud them and their efforts and the result. However I think it's become clear that there was also pressure to not be 3rd ed, one of those to be incompatible with the 3rd ed OGL.

I'll change my post.

 

[TarionzCousin]

I can tell you that is how I remember it as well, but I lost my old archmage and half demon books to an ex boyfriend, anyone know of a legal way to get those old books as pdfs?

Amazon, Ebay, and Noble Knight each have several "Role Aids" books.

I believe you are looking for "Arch Magic" or "Archmagic" and one of the "Demons" books, probably "Demons II" as I think it has "Half-Demons" included.