D&D 5E So, 5e OGL

[Remathilis]

If WotC botched anything, it was letting some great designers (Paizo, Goodman, Necro/FGG, Weiss, Green Ronin) hang while the diddled around with the GSL. Some tried to hang on using OGL work-arounds. Eventually, all of them ended up making their own system that now competes with WotC's.

 

[Morrus]

If WotC botched anything, it was letting some great designers (Paizo, Goodman, Necro/FGG, Weiss, Green Ronin) hang while the diddled around with the GSL. Some tried to hang on using OGL work-arounds. Eventually, all of them ended up making their own system that now competes with WotC's.

Well, perhaps also initially letting all those people go and creating an entire Seattle-based industry. Imagine if Lisa, Pramas, Mona, Monte, Weiss, etc. had all stayed with the company. There's an entire industry in one city of ex-TSR/WotC employees.

 

[Nellisir]

when 2e switched to 3e innovators jumped on right away when dragon was doing the lead up articles, I remember being weary myself at the time, and a lot of people in my college gameing club where bad mouthing WotC saying "I don't want to play Magic the D&D rip off"
Early adaptors bought the book the first month, I only knew 1 person other then myself, even though I had 40+ gamers in my group back then.

Your experience was somewhat different than mine, but that might have had to do with different circles, and probably to do with different people's roles in the group. I was well out of college, and along with one or two other people, pretty well the center of a fairly large collection of gaming groups. When 3e was announced, I had already switched to ascending AC (after finding it online), and I switched to a few other 3e-isms as the lead-up articles came out. I bought the PHB in the first month, and other people bought it later, but we're talking about people who, by the time 4e came out, had STILL only bought the 3e PHB. In my personal experience, at least 75% of D&D gamers never buy anything other than the PHB - and those people are never early adopters. I've almost always functioned as the "playtest" initiator in my groups. I don't think that means no one else in my groups wanted to switch; it means they just weren't motivated or informed enough to do so on their own. If they get dissatisfied, they don't look for a better system - they just quit playing.

 

[Nellisir]

It's always good to be reminded about just how many of these decisions are almost "by the seat of our pants" kind of things based upon what looks to be the right choice at the time, rather than grand master plans or the utmost in stupidity.

Any time someone tries to just paint with a wide brush saying something like "WotC were stupid and they should have known what would have happened!" just proves how completely in the dark they are about the entire process. It's never one single thing that results in any kind of seismic shift... its dozens upon dozens of little choices made by all sides that don't seem big at the time... but when combined together in the specific order they arrived results in what turns out to be a rather large shift. But its nothing anyone could ever hope to predict whilst in the middle of it.

What sticks in my mind is the tone of frustration that was in Erik's posts at the time. Week after week, month after month, you could read just how badly he wanted WotC to move things along, and how frustrated he was at the continual delays and postponements.

 

[Perram]

Well, perhaps also initially letting all those people go and creating an entire Seattle-based industry. Imagine if Lisa, Pramas, Mona, Monte, Weiss, etc. had all stayed with the company. There's an entire industry in one city of ex-TSR/WotC employees.

I certainly have no love for WotCs habit of letting go of their veterans during the "Christmas Layoffs." This just seems like a bit of well deserved karmic backlash.

 

[darjr]

Well, perhaps also initially letting all those people go and creating an entire Seattle-based industry. Imagine if Lisa, Pramas, Mona, Monte, Weiss, etc. had all stayed with the company. There's an entire industry in one city of ex-TSR/WotC employees.

I think Pramas left, though I think he's said that it was because he read the writing on the wall. I don't disagree with the your point.

 

[Morrus]

I think Pramas left, though I think he's said that it was because he read the writing on the wall. I don't disagree with the your point.

No. He was laid off.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?7041-I-choose-you-Pramas-chu!

 

[darjr]

No. He was laid off.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?7041-I-choose-you-Pramas-chu!

Well I stand corrected. Thanks.

All those creative folks out there with their own companies. Maybe a good reason to empower them to create for 5e, in an untethered way.

But maybe it's to late, many of them have their own systems now anyway. Maybe a 5e OGL doesn't really matter for 3rd party involvement. Just brainstorming a bit.

 

[Perram]

This seems to imply a basic assumption that there was a gap in the marketplace, and if Paizo had not filled it then nobody else would have.

That's not how markets work. Someone always fills a gap left in the market. If it wasn't Paizo, then someone else would have...and others were already starting to before Paizo did it in fact.

My point isn't really about Paizo - they were just the company that ended up doing it. My point is about the impact an indefinite OGL has on WOTC in the long term.

This assumes that all things are inevitable. I don't think that's the case. Pathfiner's success isn't entirely because there was a gap in the market. I wont say that it didn't help, of course. Lots of things contributed to the rise of Pathfinder.

• They have a huge group of industry veterans working for them.
• The production quality of their products is tough to match by anyone, and this was exceptionally true when the AP line first started. They learned a LOT about presentation and visual quality by writing magazines as long as they had, and those lessons are still very visible when you pick up a Pathfinder Player's Companion product today.
• And lets not forget that Lisa Stevens is leading the company, and she has a string of break out hobby game success under her belt a mile long.

I certainly think that other companies would have /tried/ to fill the gap. Certainly some did. But I would be surprised if they rose to the level of success that Pathfinder did without a similar set of advantages that they had.

To assume otherwise would be to assume that the ONLY thing Pathfinder had going for it was that it was a 3.5 successor. OR at the least, the best available successor. There are a lot of reasons that Paizo fans play the game, and the fact that its 3.5 compatible isn't the only one.

 

[tuxgeo]

It's always good to be reminded about just how many of these decisions are almost "by the seat of our pants" kind of things based upon what looks to be the right choice at the time, rather than grand master plans or the utmost in stupidity.

Any time someone tries to just paint with a wide brush saying something like "WotC were stupid and they should have known what would have happened!" just proves how completely in the dark they are about the entire process. It's never one single thing that results in any kind of seismic shift... its dozens upon dozens of little choices made by all sides that don't seem big at the time... but when combined together in the specific order they arrived results in what turns out to be a rather large shift. But its nothing anyone could ever hope to predict whilst in the middle of it.

Further: "when combined together in the specific order they arrived" you get events that produce processes that few could even hope to ecognize while in the middle of them. Evidence is sometimes in hindsight: some events and states don't even become evident until people later try to piece out what must have happened in the situations they are trying to unravel.