D&D 5E Zone spells and amazing damage potential

Uller

Adventurer
The text is the same for both spells with regards to when it does damage. Using the DMG guidelines for adjudicating damage on AoE, a 15' radius hits 3 creatures...

I think this is one of those cases where it looks good on the white board but in actual practice probably doesn't come up too often. Thinking back to our last 3 sessions, using tactics like these might have been somewhat useful in one fight (against hordes of zombies). I think that is Mr. Crawford's point.

As for Cloudkill...it kind of proves the point that it is intended for these spells to do potentially double damage...Cloudkill is 5d8 and can double to 10d8 if the caster can keep the spell going. Edit: Cone of Cold is straight up 8d8. 8d8 right now vs potentially 5d8 per round at the expense of concentration. Seems a fair trade, no?
 
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Tormyr

Hero
I think this is one of those cases where it looks good on the white board but in actual practice probably doesn't come up too often. Thinking back to our last 3 sessions, using tactics like these might have been somewhat useful in one fight (against hordes of zombies). I think that is Mr. Crawford's point.

As for Cloudkill...it kind of proves the point that it is intended for these spells to do potentially double damage...Cloudkill is 5d8 and can double to 10d8 if the caster can keep the spell going. Cloudkill is straight up 8d8. 8d8 right now vs potentially 5d8 per round at the expense of concentration. Seems a fair trade, no?

Except that Level 5 Cloudkill does 5d8 because it affects multiple targets, not because it is concentration based. I assume you were talking about level 4 blight at 8d8. It does the higher damage because it only affects a single target.

The guidance for making spells is not nearly as robust as those for making a monster. If Cloudkill was following the DMG more closely, it would do (27 (6d8) damage to be more in line with the damage table on page 284 which calls for 28 (8d6) damage for a 5th level spell that affects multiple targets. My guess is that the lost 1d8 is because it is a concentration spell that can keep going.

But the spell damage table gives a rough idea of how much damage a spell should do to a target each round 45 (10d8) for a cloudkill that hits twice is significantly more than 28 (8d6). Granted, a cloudkill that hit twice would be possible, but very unlikely. Looking to the spell damage table, a 3rd level spell should do about 21 (6d6) damage. spirit guardians does 13 (3d8) damage. It may be losing some damage because the caster may take actions normally the next turn, and it may also be losing 1d8 because of concentration. 18 (4d8) would certainly be closer to the suggested damage. If it hit a creature twice in a round, the 27 (6d8) damage is a bit better than the suggested damage, especially when it can happen again the next turn along with other actions by the caster.

When compared to one off spells like blight, 36 (8d8) is quite close to the suggested 33 (6d10). Fireball 28 (8d6) is actually better than the suggested 21 (6d6), possibly because means of mitigating Dexterity based saving throws are so common.

The other concentration damage spell mechanics that I am aware of are witch bolt (1d12 ongoing with 30' limit on 1 target), and wall of fire (damage on casting plus damage on first time entering during turn or end turn in range). Both of these give the target the option of taking more damage

I have not gone through an extensive list of the spells, but it seems like most spells are very close to the suggested damage or lower. Given that most spells seem to not exceed the damage by much (Dexterity saves aside, and I am sure there are other examples), it seems strange that this small handful of spells could exceed the suggested damage by going through some easy extra hoops. Aside from the long run to hit lots of foes, the double damage could be triggered by casting the spell on some enemies (they enter the spell, then their turn comes around) or the caster moves the aura back a few steps and forward again to make them enter it for the first time that round.

Making so that the damage only occurs when the target enters the spell or starts its turn already there brings the damage potential in line with the other spells in the PHB. Moving the spell means the damage kicks in at the start of the target creature's next turn. Shoving a creature into the area of effect causes the damage to take effect at the start of the creature's next turn. If the creature moves into it If I had not ruled this way, then Spirit Guardians and Moonbeam would have come out almost all the time because they are then Too Good (tm) compared to other spells of the same level.
 


Uller

Adventurer
Except that Level 5 Cloudkill does 5d8 because it affects multiple targets, not because it is concentration based. I assume you were talking about level 4 blight at 8d8. It does the higher damage because it only affects a single target.

Sorry...was referring to Cone of Cold...I edited my post to correct it. 5th level, same as cloud kill. Does 8d8 to multiple targets instantly vs Cloud Kill's 5d8 instantly and potentially 5d8 per turn.
 

Uchawi

First Post
I have a problem with this because the spell says first time it enters or starts its turn for both moonbeam and spirit guardians. This tells me that the movement side of it is dependent on the creature moving, not the spell.
I agree. It is written into the spell how the area effect is applied. Once you start ignoring that, I guess you can also start ignoring qualifiers on martial ability like extra attack that must happen on the characters turn. Both are examples of turn based mechanics that bring up possible conflicts, when you envision what a spell or martial ability can do. They may as well errata both of them.
 

Paraxis

Explorer
Sounds like a stupid ruling in every way it could be stupid.

In all fairness Crawfords rulings are the strict interpretation of RAW, that is his role on sage advice. As written it seems "entering" is anytime the area of effect moves into a creatures area or when a creature moves into the area itself, I can see that. I do think it is overpowered and subject to abuse. My hope is that we will see a fix in the first errata document.
 

Ristamar

Adventurer
It seems like any creature that could be affected by a moving zone is only vulnerable to the double damage "abuse" for one round, and the potential "Hammer of Dawn" tactic doesn't bother me (it's pretty cool, actually). I don't think I'll be sweating this ruling unless I see a real need to fix it.
 

Uller

Adventurer
Limiting these spells to not doing damage until the start of a targets turn makes them all but useless, especially cloudkill. Wizard wants to target a group of gnolls. He can do 8d8 with cone of cold (or even 8d6 with fireball) right now or potentially 5d8 later with cloud kill. Why would I ever use cloudkill? Like I said, if I see abuse of these spells at my table (and we have no PCs with innate flying abilities) then probably I would just make it do damage when a creature first enters the area (or the area covers a creature's space) and then again at the end of he creature's turn if it remains in the area. That seems more fun anyway because it gives a target that will die if it takes more damage a chance to do something to save itself.
 

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