D&D 5E Dual wielding and improvised weapons. Technically broken?

[hbarsquared]

First, I'm also pleasantly surprised by the civility of this discussion! +1!

Second, regarding a shield as an improvised weapon: if it's being used as a "shield" then it's not held in your hand, and so doesn't qualify.

Third, with that said, it's a great character concept. With the investment of two feats and a combat style to make it viable, it seems underpowered, if anything, and I'd be all for allowing it.

Fourth, this discussion has helped me realize is the ease of adding an unarmed strike to any melee attack. If your DM rulea an unarmed strike as a "light" weapon, then any character could use their honus action to toss a punch (without proficiency, for 1 damage). Why not? Not unbalancing, and kinda fun!

 

[ExploderWizard]

+ability score modifier to damage on a single bonus action attack each round

Basically, if you throw in dueling, you're now doing 1d8+7+1d4+7 damage, with a shield in one hand and a weapon in the other.

Not exactly. Getting the ability bonus to damage isn't granted by the dual wielder feat. That comes from the dual weapon fighting style, so the dueling style character wouldn't get the ability modifier to damage in the off hand.

 

[Blue]

This rule is written in the books where?

In the place that says "Rulings, not rules".

Let's follow this down the rabbit hole as we've done here, but take a detour to the Dueling fighting style. The same logic that makes this work also means that the Dueling can never apply unless you cut off your hand.

Say you have a weapon in a hand. In you other hand, you are either not holding anything (unarmed, a simple weapon on the weapon chart. does 1 HP damage) or holding something (either a weapon or an improvised weapon). So Duelist fighting style will never apply.

It's a level of "yes, you can take exactly what's written there, read it without any thought to context, and come up with an unreasonable conclusion". The type of conclusion you can't support, instead you challenge people to prove a negative and show me where your exact scenario is explicitly referenced in the rules even though they don't show examples of interactions between improvised weapons and the object also performing it's original function. By that logic, you can use a hammock as an improvised weapon while also lying in it.

Sorry, "rulings not rules".

Yes, I saw the links to JC. This is the same rules lawyer that says in his recent article that a hand using a shield with a holy symbol on it can be used for somatic components IF there are also material components, but NOT if there aren't. It's technically true if you read about Holy Symbol (can be on shield), Spellcasting Focus (can sub for material components) and Spellcasting Focus again (same hand can be used for material and somatic components), and it's still absurd that the easier case (just somatic) it doesn't work for.

 

[Jaron Mortimer]

Not exactly. Getting the ability bonus to damage isn't granted by the dual wielder feat. That comes from the dual weapon fighting style, so the dueling style character wouldn't get the ability modifier to damage in the off hand.

I'm well aware. You missed where I said it was a champion fighter and he had a second fighting style. All the MORE reason why the fact that you can do something similar with one feat is totally broken.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I'm well aware. You missed where I said it was a champion fighter and he had a second fighting style. All the MORE reason why the fact that you can do something similar with one feat is totally broken.

My bad, didn't see that.

On a related note considering the dueling style, what if you are wielding a versatile weapon? Lets say you fight with a long sword and no other weapon or shield. Does it make sense that you lose your damage bonus if you put a second hand on the weapon?

 

[PnPgamer]

True powergamer would use the shield as mainly as a shield, and would not waste a weapon style on dual wielding. Instead taking defensive one would give yet more ac.

 

[Mistwell]

Can you use a torch as an improvised weapon? Assuming the answer is yes...

Does the torch still give light off (assuming it is lit) when it can be used as an improvised weapon? Assuming the answer is yes...

How is this different than a shield? Both items serve their "normal" function (light, or protection) and their "improvised" function (weapon). The torch doesn't know it's being used as a weapon - it's still giving light simultaneous with smacking someone over the head.

Why wouldn't the shield give protection simultaneous with smacking someone over the head as well?

 

[pemerton]

2hp/level is nice but an extra point of AC reduces all damage by reducing the number of times you're hit by 5%.

Suppose that your AC is 19. Kobolds have +4 to hit, and so hit you 6 times in 20. The AC bonus makes that 5 times in 20, meaning a 5/6 reduction in expected damage per round.

For most PCs, 2 hp per level will be a better than 1/6 increase in hit points (eg for a fighter with a 12 CON it takes hp/level from 8 to 10, which is a 1/4 increase. Only at 1st level is the AC boost better than the hit points (12 goes to 14, which is 7/6 compared to 6/5 for the AC boost).

There are other benefits to reducing incoming damage rather than increasing the ability to soak it (less healing required) though there are downsides too (there are ways to take damage that bypass AC, such as falling, spells etc).

So I don't think a +1 AC bonus is overpowerd compared to +2 hp/level.

So, Here's ANOTHER interesting thing to think about: Let's give this whole mess to a Champion who then also takes the Dueling fighting style, which has already been stated numerous times to work with a shield in the off hand.

Let's follow this down the rabbit hole as we've done here, but take a detour to the Dueling fighting style. The same logic that makes this work also means that the Dueling can never apply unless you cut off your hand.

Say you have a weapon in a hand. In you other hand, you are either not holding anything (unarmed, a simple weapon on the weapon chart. does 1 HP damage) or holding something (either a weapon or an improvised weapon). So Duelist fighting style will never apply.

I'm not a 5e expert, but this doesn't look that complicated to me.

If a character is using his/her hand, shield etc as an improvised weapon (thereby getting the bonus off-hand attack if applicable, the AC bonus from the feat, etc) s/he is not eligible to get the damage bonus from the Duelling fighting style.

Conversely, if a character is getting the bonus from the fighting style, s/he has declared her hand, shield etc a non-weapon, and hence gets no AC bonus from the feat, no bonus action attack etc.

If a high level Champion takes the full suite of feat and styles and so, when fighting with a shield is able to toggle between +2 to damage, and +1 AC plus bonus improvised weapon attack, I don't think that is going to break the game!

 

[pemerton]

A high enough level fighter can attack 9 times with a polearm in one turn. Nine times swinging a 10' glavie around with accuracy and force, during a 6 second round.


Just saying the line between realism and heroic action is not just blurred it is not even there in D&D.

If a high level fighter can't at least emulate Jet Li then the system is letting us down!

 

[Jaron Mortimer]

Suppose that your AC is 19. Kobolds have +4 to hit, and so hit you 6 times in 20. The AC bonus makes that 5 times in 20, meaning a 5/6 reduction in expected damage per round.

For most PCs, 2 hp per level will be a better than 1/6 increase in hit points (eg for a fighter with a 12 CON it takes hp/level from 8 to 10, which is a 1/4 increase. Only at 1st level is the AC boost better than the hit points (12 goes to 14, which is 7/6 compared to 6/5 for the AC boost).

There are other benefits to reducing incoming damage rather than increasing the ability to soak it (less healing required) though there are downsides too (there are ways to take damage that bypass AC, such as falling, spells etc).

So I don't think a +1 AC bonus is overpowerd compared to +2 hp/level.


I'm not a 5e expert, but this doesn't look that complicated to me.

If a character is using his/her hand, shield etc as an improvised weapon (thereby getting the bonus off-hand attack if applicable, the AC bonus from the feat, etc) s/he is not eligible to get the damage bonus from the Duelling fighting style.

Conversely, if a character is getting the bonus from the fighting style, s/he has declared her hand, shield etc a non-weapon, and hence gets no AC bonus from the feat, no bonus action attack etc.

If a high level Champion takes the full suite of feat and styles and so, when fighting with a shield is able to toggle between +2 to damage, and +1 AC plus bonus improvised weapon attack, I don't think that is going to break the game!

My point wasn't actually about the combo we are currently talking about. My point was that, with one feat, you can achieve everything you're doing with two feats and a fighting style. The k ly difference is that you're using a quarterstaff Inoted of a longsword. Something is rotten in denmark.