D&D 5E Why does 5E SUCK?

[MoutonRustique]

As to this topic, this will be my comment :

4e DC guidelines are like Ikea(tm not mine) instructions - they give a path to a supposed* desirable outcome from a set of objects and tools built to offer such an outcome.

Nowhere in the history of never and/or ever has Ikea (and its instructions) stopped anyone from drilling a hole 3/4 of an inch lower because they thought the result would look better.

All "select DC by level" verbiage in 4e is assuming you wish to create a dramatic situation with fairly predictable outcome with regards to the PC/party's general power. It is a guidebook saying : "If you use these numbers, there is a good chance the game will work in this* way."

That is all it is. That's it.


Should you feel inclined to assess that as saying something more, go right on ahead.



*The games' default proposition for game tone and feel. Which must be supposed, as the designers are not in anyone else's head, and so they must be decided through conjecture.

 

[Imaro]

Yes that is exactly what's being argued. Difficulty of a challenge is set by the adventure which is designed for a particular level of PC's. Same as it has always been. I actually quoted chapter and verse in the DMG for it.

You have an entire section devoted to traps and hazards set by challenge rating. A trap doesn't change by PC level. You simply choose traps that fulfill a particular level of challenge that tge DM wants to use.

How is this any different? The only difference I see is the level of transparency.

And you get that level of difficulty from the levrl of the PC's... call it challenge level or whatever... the basis for said difficulty in default 4eis the level of the PC's. Show me a passage, sentence or whatever that tells you to base the actually difficulty ratings (actual numbers) on the adventure... I bet you can't...but I and others have cited numerous references to character/creature level in determmining the actual DC numbers. Should the adventurebe considered... sure but the basis in the 4e booksalways starts with characterlevel.

 

[Imaro]

First, this is just word games.

Yeah starting to realize this is exactly what's going on here...

Summary: I'm not basing my DC's on the level of the PC's in my game, I'm designing an adventure, sometimes on the fly, that uses the DC's for a party of 10th level characters... and my PC's just happen to be 10th level characters... but they're not what I'm basing my DC's on... I'm basing them on the level of the adventure I am creating... for my 10th level PC's...

 

[Imaro]

As to this topic, this will be my comment :

4e DC guidelines are like Ikea(tm not mine) instructions - they give a path to a supposed* desirable outcome from a set of objects and tools built to offer such an outcome.

Yep...

Nowhere in the history of never and/or ever has Ikea (and its instructions) stopped anyone from drilling a hole 3/4 of an inch lower because they thought the result would look better.

Agree with this as well... no one, as far as I can tell, is arguing the DM is forced to do anything by the 4e books (or any other edition's books)... we are talking about what the procedures, advice, etc. in the core books push you towards as far as the game and adventure design.

All "select DC by level" verbiage in 4e is assuming you wish to create a dramatic situation with fairly predictable outcome with regards to the PC/party's general power. It is a guidebook saying : "If you use these numbers, there is a good chance the game will work in this* way."

That is all it is. That's it.

I agree with this too...it instructs the DM to use PC level to devise a set of numbers that it believes will give said PC's the mathematical probabilities that the designers believed would result in a fun game... key being it uses the level of the PC's. Again I don't see how this is in dispute.

Should you feel inclined to assess that as saying something more, go right on ahead.

Nope, added my own thoughts but I think you're pretty much spot on.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah starting to realize this is exactly what's going on here...

Summary: I'm not basing my DC's on the level of the PC's in my game, I'm designing an adventure, sometimes on the fly, that uses the DC's for a party of 10th level characters... and my PC's just happen to be 10th level characters... but they're not what I'm basing my DC's on...

Thing is, you don't actually HAVE to do that. You can write a 10th level adventure regardless of what the level of your PC's are. In a sandbox, that's precisely what you would do. The adventure level is based on that part of the sandbox, and it's up to the players to decide whether or not they want to try that challenge. In a more tailored game, you write the adventure based on the group you have right now. That you are writing an adventure specifically for the PC's at the time is happenstance, although probably fairly typical.

Now, how is this different from any other edition? If you're designing an adventure on the fly, for your current group, are you using radically different difficulties than the level of your PC's? Are you dropping red dragons on 1st level parties? The blizzard that you dropped into the adventure will be a different blizzard if the party is 1st level or 10th level, won't it? If the DC's are beyond the means of the party, you just killed the party, that was easy. If the DC's are too far below the level of the party, then it's not really much of a blizzard is it?

Explain to me how you design an adventure, on the fly, for a current group that is playing, without referencing their levels? In what edition of D&D did you do this? In 1e, the monsters and traps were based on dungeon level, which, in turn, was based on character level. Why is a monster a Level III monster? Because it is meant to be on the third level of a dungeon and 1st level PC's aren't meant to be facing it.

The difficulty of challenges in adventures in any edition of the game are based on the expected levels of the PC's IN THAT ADVENTURE. The only difference between 4e and earlier editions is that in 4e they actually gave you numerical ranges for determining difficulties instead of letting the DM try to guess what would be appropriate for that level of an adventure.

I understand that for some people, admitting that 4e isn't any different than any other edition is tantamount to sitting on rusty nails, but, again, how do you design an adventure without referencing character level?

Give me an example, a published example, of an adventure that does not reference character level. I'll wait. In forty years of modules, thousands and thousands of pages, if not thousands of actual modules, can you give me a single example of an adventure that does not reference character level?

 

[Hussar]

How in the hell can you agree with MoutonRustique and then turn around and argue with me?

WE ARE SAYING THE SAME THING!

 

[Imaro]

Thing is, you don't actually HAVE to do that. You can write a 10th level adventure regardless of what the level of your PC's are. In a sandbox, that's precisely what you would do. The adventure level is based on that part of the sandbox, and it's up to the players to decide whether or not they want to try that challenge. In a more tailored game, you write the adventure based on the group you have right now. That you are writing an adventure specifically for the PC's at the time is happenstance, although probably fairly typical.

You don't have to do anything with the set of rules... again we are speaking to what the advice, procedures and instructions in the core books push you towards. Point me to the section in 4e about sandbox play and how to set it up... where it talks specifically about deriving DC's from level (outside of the characters)... Where is the advice, procedures, etc. for the things you are talking about, that's what I want to see... otherwise the core rule books are pushing towards a certain playstyle of DC's based on character level.

Now, how is this different from any other edition? If you're designing an adventure on the fly, for your current group, are you using radically different difficulties than the level of your PC's? Are you dropping red dragons on 1st level parties? The blizzard that you dropped into the adventure will be a different blizzard if the party is 1st level or 10th level, won't it? If the DC's are beyond the means of the party, you just killed the party, that was easy. If the DC's are too far below the level of the party, then it's not really much of a blizzard is it?

I use 5e there are no DC's for the level of my PC's... My 2nd level party actually did encounter a dragon in my Far North campaign... plenty of clues, chance to escape and some died through their own choices. The iimportant thing was we all had fun in the game. No in 5e a blizzard is a blizzard. These all seem to be things I don't have to deal with in 5e... go figure.

Explain to me how you design an adventure, on the fly, for a current group that is playing, without referencing their levels? In what edition of D&D did you do this? In 1e, the monsters and traps were based on dungeon level, which, in turn, was based on character level. Why is a monster a Level III monster? Because it is meant to be on the third level of a dungeon and 1st level PC's aren't meant to be facing it.

I'll repeat it again... 5e

The difficulty of challenges in adventures in any edition of the game are based on the expected levels of the PC's IN THAT ADVENTURE. The only difference between 4e and earlier editions is that in 4e they actually gave you numerical ranges for determining difficulties instead of letting the DM try to guess what would be appropriate for that level of an adventure.

I understand that for some people, admitting that 4e isn't any different than any other edition is tantamount to sitting on rusty nails, but, again, how do you design an adventure without referencing character level?

Give me an example, a published example, of an adventure that does not reference character level. I'll wait. In forty years of modules, thousands and thousands of pages, if not thousands of actual modules, can you give me a single example of an adventure that does not reference character level?

The Challenge of Champions adventures published in Dungeon magazine... for any level characters

 

[Imaro]

How in the hell can you agree with MoutonRustique and then turn around and argue with me?

WE ARE SAYING THE SAME THING!

No you aren't... he's saying DC's are based on character level... you're saying they are based on adventure level... but again there is no formula, recipe, whatever that uses "adventure level" but doesn't use character level in the 4e corebooks to get DC's...

 

[Hussar]

You don't have to do anything with the set of rules... again we are speaking to what the advice, procedures and instructions in the core books push you towards. Point me to the section in 4e about sandbox play and how to set it up... where it talks specifically about deriving DC's from level (outside of the characters)... Where is the advice, procedures, etc. for the things you are talking about, that's what I want to see... otherwise the core rule books are pushing towards a certain playstyle of DC's based on character level.

I guess I'll have to quote myself here:

Quote Originally Posted by 4e DMG Page 70
More so than perhaps any kind of encounter, a skill challenge is defined by its context within an adventure... A skill challenge ... is directly related to the particular adventure and campaign it is set in.
Quote Originally Posted by 4e DMG Page 71
Set a level for the challenge and the DC's for the checks involved. As a starting point (underline mine) set the level of the challenge to the level of the party. (the section then continues on how to vary that level with the DC's)


Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?456928-Why-does-5E-SUCK/page135#ixzz3fRvqCLmY

I use 5e there are no DC's for the level of my PC's... My 2nd level party actually did encounter a dragon in my Far North campaign... plenty of clues, chance to escape and some died through their own choices. The iimportant thing was we all had fun in the game. No in 5e a blizzard is a blizzard. These all seem to be things I don't have to deal with in 5e... go figure.



I'll repeat it again... 5e

How did you determine the survival DC for the blizzard? How did you know that the dragon encounter would be difficult for these PC's?

The Challenge of Champions adventures published in Dungeon magazine... for any level characters

Heh, hoist on my own petard. But, again, not really. Your own quote references levels. But, fair enough. The exception that proves the rule and all that. Name two.

 

[Hussar]

No you aren't... he's saying DC's are based on character level... you're saying they are based on adventure level... but again there is no formula, recipe, whatever that uses "adventure level" but doesn't use character level in the 4e corebooks to get DC's...

But, that's true in EVERY EDITION.

How do you think they determine the Challenge Ratings of monsters? Or Traps?

Challenge:

A monster's Challenge rating tells you how great a threat the monster is. An appropriately equiped and well-rested party of four adventurers should be able to defeat a monster that has a challenge rating equal to its level without suffering any deaths.

Good grief it 's right bloody there in the books. Do I need to start quoting from the DMG too?