D&D 5E The "Lawful" alignment, and why "Lawful Evil" is NOT an oxymoron!

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Although I've given XP to [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=22574]The Human Target[/MENTION], I think there is a tolerably coherent reading of LE. It's related to CG in an important way, too.

This reading is taken from Gygax's PHB and DMG.

First you need to characterise good and evil (DMG, p 23):

[T]the tenets of good are human rights . . . life, relative freedom, and the prospect of happiness. Cruelty and suffering are undesirable. Evil, on the other hand, does not concern itself with rights or happiness; purpose is the determinant.​

With this in mind, here is LE (PHB p 33 & DMG p 23, glommed together):

Creatures of this alignment are great respecters of laws and strict order, but life, beauty, truth, freedom and the like are held as valueless, or at least scorned. Lawful evil creatures consider order as the means by which each group is properly placed in the cosmos, from lowest to highest, strongest first, weakest last. Good is seen as an excuse to promote the mediocrity of the whole and suppress the better and more capable . . . .

By adhering to stringent discipline, those of lawful evil alignment hope to impose their yoke upon the world. [This] allows each group to structure itself and fix its place as compared to others, serving the stronger but being served by the weaker.​

And here is CG (similarly glommed together from the same pages):

To the chaotic good individual, freedom and independence are as important to life and happiness. The ethos views this freedom as the only means by which each creature can achieve true satisfaction and happiness. They place value on life and the welfare of each individual. Respect for individualism is also great.

Law, order, social forms, and anything else which tends to restrict or abridge individual freedom is wrong, and each individual is capable of achieving self-realization and prosperity through himself, herself, or itself.​

Basically, LE and CG believe the same things about the effects of laws and social order - they constrain individual self-realisation, imposing a burden and subordinating the welfare of some to that of others. But for the CG this is an undesired thing, because the CG are committed to universal happiness and wellbeing. Whereas for the LE this is a desired thing, because they do not share that commitment - rather, they want to be part of a system that will let them exercise power (however petty) by "imposing their yoke upon the world".

It is possible to see, in this Gygaxian framing, that NE differs a little bit from LE, though not all that much. From the same pages again:

[N]eutral evil holds that neither groups nor individuals hove great meaning. The neutral evil creature views law and chaos as unnecessary considerations, for pure evil is all-in-all. Either might be used, but both are disdained as foolish clutter useless in eventually bringing maximum evilness to the world.

This ethos holds that seeking to promote weal for all actually brings woe to the truly deserving. Natural forces which are meant to cull out the weak and stupid are artificially suppressed by so-called good, and the fittest are wrongfully held back, so whatever means are expedient can be used by the powerful to gain and maintain their dominance, without concern for anything.​

The first of these two paragraphs I think is mostly garbled nonsense, but the second paragraph marks out the slight distinction from LE. Like LE, NE agrees that pursuing universal wellbeing holds back the deserving. But unlike LE, NE does not have a conception that social structures are the yoke by which to impose domination. They will use whatever means are expedient. You could say that the NE agree with the aspirations of the LE, but differ in their social theory.
 
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You could also say that the imperial commanders in Star Wars are lawful evil, they are just following commands. A lawful evil character could simply be following orders, or be following the law (even if its the laws of an oppressive regime), or be following a personal code of honor.

In my current campaign I have a lawful evil witch, who is a reliable ally to the player characters. Yes, she is cruel, but she also follows commands from her superiors.
 

I've had a train of thought that goes something like this:

There is just good and evil. Altruistic or selfserving. A sentient being is one or the other (or inbetween). Lawful and Chaotic represents a being's outlook on society.

If you think society (or nature) is evil you are chaotic. If you think society is good you are lawful.

This is by no means a core truth. It's just a way of looking at the ethics axis of the alignment chart.

So if you are a good person that grows up in a protected town and educated and sheltered by the clergy you are probably going to grow up thinking society is good at it's heart. Lawful Good would be your alignment. However if something very bad happens to you while growing up rocking that belief it might be replaced by a sense that society in truth is malign and cold. You would become Chaotic Good.

A great angry orc might be evil and he knows that society (his tribe mostly) is also evil. He would behave towards society in an adverserial untrusting manner. Chaotic Evil, if you will. Might makes right.

A gnoll that stealthily lives on the outskirts of a small town might have learned that the towns-people are of no threat to him and that he can take advantage of their naïvety. Lawful Evil.

Still, lets say you are a good character brought up in a monastery by warrior mystics and that one day the monastery is razed to the ground and every last man but you is killed by a vile race of humanoid monsters, you could still become Lawful Good. Your outlook on society has not changed due to this outside force, it has instead strengthened your resolve to protect what is good in the world.

The model works for background:

Dwarves are hardworking, honest, and fair in their dealings with others. Perhaps they are too trusting because it leads to their home being invaded and taken over by goblins. The dwarves expected the elves to aid the dwarves but alas, the trust between dwarves and elves is forever ruined.

The elves on the other hand with their long life spans has witnessed how their numbers are diminishing due to a constant threat of humanoids with a complete disregard for the sanctity of life. Over millennia the elves have come to realize that nature is threatening the elven way of life on every flank. If they must chose they must protect themselves first even if it does cost them the trust of dwarves.
 

There is just good and evil. Altruistic or selfserving. A sentient being is one or the other (or inbetween). Lawful and Chaotic represents a being's outlook on society.
I think it's clear in the alignment section of Gygax's AD&D that law and chaos aren't independent values. They have only instrumental value. The LG value law and order because they think it is a means to universal welfare. The CG reject social structure and embrace freedom and individualism because they think that only the latter can lead to universal wellbeing.

The LE, NE and CE all pursue their own ends without regard to the wellbeing of others, but again they have different social theories. The LE think that the best way to impose their will is via some sort of collective structure. The CE think the best way to impose their will is through pursuing individual whim without any regard to cooperation or group effort. The NE are intermediate between these two.

I think other elements of AD&D, and even moreso post-Gygaxian D&D - and especially Planescape - have tried to make law and chaos into values of their own.

Here is a practical example to try to illustrate the difference: in the framework of the AD&D alignment sections, the LG person has as deep a disagreement with the LE person as with the CE person, perhaps even moreso, because they disagree radically over whether social structures are a source of welfare or just a yoke upon others.

Whereas once you hold law up as a distinct value, then the LG and LE person have some value in common. That's the thing that I think is incoherent.
 


I don't agree with those definitions at all.

Lawful: Following the law, or some code of conduct. Lawful characters, good or evil, share a respect for certain rules. A lawful good character could be following the law, but so could a lawful evil character. There's plenty of ways for a character to be evil, without actually breaking the law. A lawful evil character probably cares mostly about his own best interests. He does not mind stepping on top of a couple of people to get what he wants. When a lawful evil character promises you a fair fight, he could mean it, if that's the code he follows. He might even hand you a sword to defend yourself.

Chaotic: Unpredictable, and not always in accordance with the law. Chaotic characters hold their own judgement in higher regard than the law. They do what seems right by them. Chaotic good characters are not always brave heroes. They could be cowards, or mostly in it for their own interests. But they come through in the end. Chaotic evil characters on the other hand, just do what they feel like. They could be very friendly, but betrayal is just around the corner. They are excellent schemers, and very dangerous.

Why wouldn't they be LN, then? Are they actively trying to impose their yoke upon the world?


They would still be lawful evil, because they know that what they are doing is wrong, and do it anyway. They follow the law, and commit evil acts. It can't get any more black and white than that.

Darth Vader on the other is a bit more unclear. He seems to be in between Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil. He follows the commands of the emperor, but is a bit unpredictable, and in Empire he even suggests to Luke that they could overthrow the emperor together. Whether he means it, or is simply using it to try and draw Luke to the dark side, is up for debate.
 
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Lawful for me has always been "keeps their word, obeys the laws."
LE is "honors the letter of the law, not the sprit, and will screw you over with obscure contract clauses and obscure laws"
 


Darth Vader on the other is a bit more unclear. He seems to be in between Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil. He follows the commands of the emperor, but is a bit unpredictable, and in Empire he even suggests to Luke that they could overthrow the emperor together. Whether he means it, or is simply using it to try and draw Luke to the dark side, is up for debate.


I agree. Darth Vader is quite an interesting case study. Let's assume that the Jedi Order strives for a good society. They are mystic peace keepers and mediators. -Star Wars is a tale of good versus evil, after all. I'm inclined to say the jedi are neutral good. They are always going on about bringing balance to the force. They have a council and guidelines but they are not about building structure and order.

I'd say Darth Vader is neutral evil. He is operating in an LE organization. He is clearly set apart from regular chain of command. His armor is in a different color that other officers. He can kill other officers at will without repercussions. Vader displays behaviour consistent with a chaotic evil character but can still cooperate with his more lawful colleagues. I'd pin him as NE any day. In fact, had Vader been chaotic evil I'd expect him to try and topple the Emperor at an earlier state. I'm fairly confident Vader thinks of himself as the best suited person for the imperial throne.

Law and Chaos are not at the heart of the Star Wars saga and Darth Vader is a character on the neutral side (middle?) of Law and Chaos.
 
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Why don't we just have a place on our character sheets to write...

Varging the Dwarf
- never steals
- loves beer
- upholds dwarven laws
- fights Evil
- tempted by gems
- loves his Mom

Oh wait, we do have space to write that.

So much more useful and clear than Lawful Good.
 

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