D&D 5E Fixing the Champion

[Lehrbuch]

...when I suspect I'll just be dismissed as out of my gourd for saying that a Champion should put their skill proficiency choices in skills associated with Int, Wis, and Cha because the combination of their likely higher physical ability scores and Remarkable Athlete will make them plenty adept at those physical tasks, meaning a more potently function character in more pillars of the game.

This is something that I always consider! Do I double-down on the physical skills or take the opportunity to be good at other stuff too?

Lastly, the only complaint I've seen about Survivor is that it doesn't happen sooner... and I actually think that is a valid complaint, even though such a potent ability being earlier in the game might appear too powerful.

If Survivor was acquired earlier, I'd probably want it to scale with level somehow. Kind of like how Second Wind does. Maybe something like "the HP regain is (fighter level)/3 + CON mod.; round up". Although that's starting to look a bit too much like maths. It'd still be powerful though, and the change might not have much impact (over just using the rule as is at a lower level) because the HP total of a lower level champion will be less.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

This is something that I always consider! Do I double-down on the physical skills or take the opportunity to be good at other stuff too?

You...can't "double down" on Remarkable Athlete (nor JoAT, for that matter, despite it being strictly superior). It doesn't stack with Proficiency. If it did, it would be slightly less depressing as a class feature.

If Survivor was acquired earlier, I'd probably want it to scale with level somehow. Kind of like how Second Wind does. Maybe something like "the HP regain is (fighter level)/3 + CON mod.; round up". Although that's starting to look a bit too much like maths. It'd still be powerful though, and the change might not have much impact (over just using the rule as is at a lower level) because the HP total of a lower level champion will be less.

Why not make it Prof+Con? As long as it's acquired late enough (say, at least Fighter 7), it won't make things pear-shaped. Admittedly, this will mean it tops out slightly better than it does currently (5+Con), but that seems like a minor problem. You could also have it start out as half proficiency + Con, and then upgrade to full proficiency + Con at a later level.

 

[Lehrbuch]

You...can't "double down" on Remarkable Athlete (nor JoAT, for that matter, despite it being strictly superior). It doesn't stack with Proficiency. If it did, it would be slightly less depressing as a class feature.

Remarkable Athlete will apply to all Physical Skills that lack proficiency. I can also choose to take proficiency on some Physical Skills. This makes me twice as good at those Skills (hence "double down"), but means Remarkable Athlete has no effect on those skills.

Or I can accept that Remarkable Athlete plus good mods. from high scores in Physical Abilities will make me "good enough" at the Physical Skills. Which means I can use my proficiency slots to be also be "good enough" at something else useful (like Intimidation or Perception or Insight).

 

[Tony Vargas]

Or I can accept that Remarkable Athlete plus good mods. from high scores in Physical Abilities will make me "good enough" at the Physical Skills. Which means I can use my proficiency slots to be also be "good enough" at something else useful (like Intimidation or Perception or Insight).

That sounds like a prescription for mediocrity. You'll never be as good an Athlete as someone with similar physical stats and proficiency, let alone Expertise. That's pretty unremarkable. And, with luxury proficiency in tertiary-stat checks, you also get to be nowhere near as good as anyone who at all specializes.

Changing RA to at least stack with proficiency would at least put you between other proficient characters and those (even more remarkable athletes) with Expertise.

 

[Lehrbuch]

That sounds like a prescription for mediocrity. You'll never be as good an Athlete as someone with similar physical stats and proficiency, let alone Expertise. That's pretty unremarkable. And, with luxury proficiency in tertiary-stat checks, you also get to be nowhere near as good as anyone who at all specializes.

Yes, but the important thing is whether your PC is "good enough" to have a "reasonable chance of success" at doing what you want to do in play.

Exactly what "good enough" and "reasonable chance of success" mean is a matter of taste and circumstance. However, your PC certainly doesn't need to be better than some theoretical other PC who isn't actually a character in the in-play party. There's no real reason to even be the best in the party.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yes, but the important thing is whether your PC is "good enough" to have a "reasonable chance of success" at doing what you want to do in play.

For instance, if you want to be 'good enough' to consistently win competitions and have people remarking on what an athlete you are, taking Proficiency is going to get you closer than relying on 'Remarkable Athlete,' and Expertise would be even better.

 

[Quartz]

Will that work? I'm afb but don't you have to make an attack action to so the push will be late? But then there's no sequencing ignore my prattling

The Bonus action from the Shield Master feat can come at any time.

 

[Lehrbuch]

For instance, if you want to be 'good enough' to consistently win competitions and have people remarking on what an athlete you are, taking Proficiency is going to get you closer than relying on 'Remarkable Athlete,' and Expertise would be even better.

Perhaps, but is that what you want to do in play?

Also, the difference between Proficiency and Remarkable Athlete is +1 from levels 7-8, +2 from levels 9 to 16, and +3 from levels 17-20. So while Proficiency is better, it's not huge. Is a +3 bonus to Athletics (say) at level 17 worth more or less than a +6 bonus to Perception (say)? Depends on what you want to do in play. Depends on what you Ability Scores actually are.

The real cost of the Champion putting his Proficiencies into non-Physical skills, to me, is the period prior to level 7, before you get Remarkable Athlete.

 

[Hussar]

The Bonus action from the Shield Master feat can come at any time.

And, just to add to this, the shove/trip action can be substituted for a single attack as well. It's in the next sentence in the description of the PHB. Heh, my group had to read it a few times to catch that.

 

[I'm A Banana]

That sounds like a prescription for mediocrity. You'll never be as good an Athlete as someone with similar physical stats and proficiency, let alone Expertise. That's pretty unremarkable. And, with luxury proficiency in tertiary-stat checks, you also get to be nowhere near as good as anyone who at all specializes.

Bounded Accuracy, man.

Are you good enough to get the job done? Great. Anything after that is numberwang. +1/2 proficiency plus a big STR bonus is mostly good enough to get the job done.

Changing RA to at least stack with proficiency would at least put you between other proficient characters and those (even more remarkable athletes) with Expertise.

Long story short: Remarkable Athlete is better than a lot of theorycrafting would indicate. Compare the damage potentials and skill totals of a fighter with RA and a rogue with a +10 in Athletics. If as a rogue you WANT to basically phone in your Sneak Attack and pump Athletics, you can have a 20% boost over a fighter (who is better than you in every other way). It would be like a Fighter giving up Action Surge in exchange for Expertise - not generally a trade worth making.