D&D 5E Fixing the Champion

[Lehrbuch]

The greatest thing I've learned so far in this thread is Remarkable Athlete is pretty ho-hum. As a DM I'd just let it stack with skill training but probably not expertise or similar.

I think it's pretty good in play. The important thing to remember is that Remarkable Athlete doesn't just apply to the four Physical skills, but to every STR, DEX, CON check, that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus. So it applies to Initiative, lock picking and trap disarming, breaking stuff, breaking free from web spells and the like, it frequently applies to "Use an Item" actions, etc.

It also lets you jump further!

 

[EzekielRaiden]

This is actually a good point, I think people focus too much on the skills and not the other applications of the physical abilities. In the PHB they have a list of things that you can also try with ability checks which don't fall under the purview of a skill and those are just a handful of items, there are plenty of more things for the creative champion to do. Remarkable athlete is good to have even if you have training in the four physical skills since it can apply to so many situations. One of the simplest things I can think of is smashing open a door, the champion would simply be better at than a fighter of another subclass.

For some reason, I had thought breaking down doors WAS an Athletics check. But I've never really understood how 5e differentiates what should be a straight ability check from what shouldn't. Either way, I don't really think Remarkable Athlete lives up to its name. It's hardly remarkable (a +1 or +2 bonus for the vast majority of the game). The biggest impact it has...is on Initiative, which is combat-related.

 

[Prism]

The greatest thing I've learned so far in this thread is Remarkable Athlete is pretty ho-hum. As a DM I'd just let it stack with skill training but probably not expertise or similar.

Good idea. I think it should stack with existing proficiency too. It would make the champion very good at athletics and/or acrobatics but still not as good as expertise.

This is the only change to the class I might make

 

[krakistophales]

And yet you seem determined to convince people of your position.

You proposed a change because the Champion isn't working for you. People told you why your changes might be problematic. You can either reject or accept that advice and move on. You seem to be taking their criticisms a bit personally. You shouldn't. A few months ago I proposed a change to the stoneskin spell and got a similar response. I don't believe I reacted by taking it personally and becoming argumentative. People made criticisms, I argued my position and eventually decided against the change.

That you have gotten through 8 levels of play with only one attack having advantage is a huge read flag for me. Something is off. I'm not saying your game/group/style is badwrongfun...to each his own. But advantage seems to me to be a core mechanic to the game and the tactician/optimizer in me sees that as the focal point of the champion class. Find ways to get more attack rolls and you will get more chances to crit. Action Surge+Two Weapon Fighting+Advantage = 14 chances at a crit at 11th level. 1-.9^14 is 77% for at least one crit and probably better than even odds at 2 or more. If that doesn't sound like fun to you then, yeah...you either shouldn't play a champion (again...what's wrong with just using 4d8 superiority dice to do extra damage when you want instead of relying on crits?) or go with a straight damage bonus. I'd say +1 at 3rd and +2 at 17th and maybe make crits knock down or push foes. +Prof bonus seems too high to me. 10 hits and you do the same extra damage as BM does with his superiority dice with no need for resource management. That seems a bit over the top to me. YMMV.

As a DM, if a player came to me and said they are finding the champion class to be not living up to expectations the first thing I'd do before modifying the class is tell them and the party to try to give the champion advantage more often. If the player said he wasn't interested in that, I'd hand him 4d8 and tell him all about superiority dice. No advantage necessary.

The greatest thing I've learned so far in this thread is Remarkable Athlete is pretty ho-hum. As a DM I'd just let it stack with skill training but probably not expertise or similar.

Nope, not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just wanted to get a general idea for how people would feel about my fixes, not to convince them that they need to be enacted in order to make the champion better, and anything I argue is in the spirit of debate, not because I'm personally miffed. I just don't like when people take on a superior tone of voice and assume that I have to convince them in order to make my point valid.

By the very fact of you saying that if someone isn't interested in that, hand him 4d8 and tell him all about superiority dice, you're admitting that BM is an obviously superior choice to the champion. I'm saying that the champion needs some improvement so that he doesn't have to rely on the entire party working for him in order to allow him to do what he has to do, which is deal more damage and crit more often. If that wasn't the design ethos of the champion, they wouldn't have had those mechanics in there, and flavor text him with "physically superior specimen" and "remarkable athlete" and all that BS.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

By the very fact of you saying that if someone isn't interested in that, hand him 4d8 and tell him all about superiority dice, you're admitting that BM is an obviously superior choice to the champion.

That's not at all what I got from Uller's post. To me, he(?) was saying, "You don't like that vanilla? Here, try chocolate instead. See if this is more to your liking."

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I just don't like when people take on a superior tone of voice and assume that I have to convince them in order to make my point valid.

I sincerely apologize that you felt I took a superior tone of voice, though my tone is entirely up to how you choose to read me since tone can't actually be transferred via text (without stage-directions), and that I was not clear that I was not expecting you to convince me that you are actually correct.

I was meaning that you weren't convincing me that your point was valid, since the facts you used to show the validity of your point weren't actually correct.

By the very fact of you saying that if someone isn't interested in that, hand him 4d8 and tell him all about superiority dice, you're admitting that BM is an obviously superior choice to the champion.

That's a false claim.

Demonstration via analogy:
A statement that this tuna salad sandwich isn't satisfying being met with the suggestion of trying it with more pickles, and if that's still not satisfying giving a roast beef sandwich a try instead... is not an admission that roast beef is an obviously superior choice of sandwich.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Additionally, as I agree with Uller's sentiment and would likely do similarly, I would just as quickly do the opposite. If a BM player came to me complaining that he has too much bookkeeping to deal with or maybe experiencing choice paralysis, I'd take his 4d8 and tell him he crits on 19+ now. See if he likes that better.

So no, neither version is an admission that the other option is superior. Not to me anyways.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Because she would be less good at the other two Physical Skills, and she wouldn't get to a bonus to every other non-skill based STR, DEX, or CON check (note that Initiative is a DEX check) and would also have less opportunity for non-Physical Skill Proficiencies.

That would be different, certainly, but different in a way that gives the character a chance to stand out where expertise applies. And, it has the virtue of reducing the complexity of the rules set.

What about 'Remarkable Athlete' giving the full proficiency bonus, and stacking with proficiency, but not expertise? That would give the equivalent of Expertise is you took proficiency, and make you genuinely better at every other physical roll. Or, the current +1-3 bonus, but stacking with Proficiency /and/ Expertise, so potentially able to be the 'best' at Athletics, if they invested in it (enough to get Expertise).

 

[krakistophales]

I sincerely apologize that you felt I took a superior tone of voice, though my tone is entirely up to how you choose to read me since tone can't actually be transferred via text (without stage-directions), and that I was not clear that I was not expecting you to convince me that you are actually correct.

I was meaning that you weren't convincing me that your point was valid, since the facts you used to show the validity of your point weren't actually correct.

That's a false claim.

Demonstration via analogy:
A statement that this tuna salad sandwich isn't satisfying being met with the suggestion of trying it with more pickles, and if that's still not satisfying giving a roast beef sandwich a try instead... is not an admission that roast beef is an obviously superior choice of sandwich.

No worries about the tone, my bad.

Yes, if you say no vanilla try chocolate, fine. But this is a discussion where there are only 3 kinds of ice cream flavors, 2 of them being gourmet designer creations and 1 being a harry potter joke jelly bean puke flavored one. Then saying "Don't like the puke flavored one, bobby? Try the graham cracker strawberry cheesecake flavor instead" becomes a bit of an obtuse statement.

We all know that BM is superior to the champion, because he has superiority dice, ergo extra damage, on demand, and can do many extra things like extend attack range, induce status effects, improve his AC, etc. while the champion simply can "maybe I hit things possibly harder sometimes maybe"

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*