D&D 5E Fixing the Champion

[lowkey13]

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[Tony Vargas]

I don't seek confirmation. I seek discussion, but pertinent to the thread's purpose, not 8,000 different ways you guys think the champion is fantastic, because that isn't the purpose of this thread.

To that purpose..

The Champion is already a high-DPR character. You can goose that a little if you want to help him pull ahead of the Battlemaster or Paladin or whatever in white-room analysis. It won't make a huge difference. DPR in 5e is already more than sufficient, in general.

So maybe look at the few other things the Champion gets. Remarkable Athlete has already been mentioned: just letting it stack with Proficiency would make it a bit more impressive and relevant, and it's a very easy tweak. Second Wind is a fighter, not a sub-class feature, but a SCAG sub-class sets the precedent of changing/adding to it. You could improve the Champion's Second Wind or give him an extra use of it. ASIs: The fighter gets more ASI's than other classes to make up for getting so much less of so much else, the Champion, getting even less than other fighters could maybe get another ASI, IIRC, 10th level was suggested up-thread. Building on that you could give the Champion access to selected feats in a campaign that didn't otherwise allow feats.
Indomitable evokes the old-school fighter's excellent high-level saves, you could build on that by giving the Champion proficiency in a third saving throw, or even all saves.

 

[krakistophales]

I've played a champion to level 8, and a battlemaster to level 12, and another champion to level 4, and thus have experience enough to speak intelligently on the "practical" applications of theorycrafting, as well as the "typical" play session involving these archetypes.

To me it seems there are two ways to approach this subject: Either expand the crit range so that the champ actually gets to crit an appreciable amount more than any other archetype, or just give him static attack bonuses, like adding proficiency to damage, and then giving him something else (like a deadly critical where, on a nat 20, he triples the dice, or doubles the static damage, or both) and call it a day.

Remarkable athlete seems to be established in this thread as needing full proficiency, and the regeneration seems like it's fine the way it is, which is cool with me.

The last point of contention is the fighting style, whether to offer a static bonus to AC/ATK/DMG or just leave it as is. My argument is that it should be the static bonus, since most people will end up just taking the +1 AC anyway.

And I'm sorry, but allowing an archetype to do an average of 6 more damage 10% more often is anything but OP. The goddamn barbarian can roll advantage on all attacks, which effectively doubles his crit chance, and can deal a max of 6d12 on a crit, but no one is crying that the barbarian needs nerfing. Why can't we have a fighter archetype that is simple but deadly like 4e's slayer?

 

[krakistophales]

To that purpose..

The Champion is already a high-DPR character. You can goose that a little if you want to help him pull ahead of the Battlemaster or Paladin or whatever in white-room analysis. It won't make a huge difference. DPR in 5e is already more than sufficient, in general.

So maybe look at the few other things the Champion gets. Remarkable Athlete has already been mentioned: just letting it stack with Proficiency would make it a bit more impressive and relevant, and it's a very easy tweak. Second Wind is a fighter, not a sub-class feature, but a SCAG sub-class sets the precedent of changing/adding to it. You could improve the Champion's Second Wind or give him an extra use of it. ASIs: The fighter gets more ASI's than other classes to make up for getting so much less of so much else, the Champion, getting even less than other fighters could maybe get another ASI, IIRC, 10th level was suggested up-thread. Building on that you could give the Champion access to selected feats in a campaign that didn't otherwise allow feats.
Indomitable evokes the old-school fighter's excellent high-level saves, you could build on that by giving the Champion proficiency in a third saving throw, or even all saves.

These are some pretty awesome suggestions. Perhaps rather than having a second fighting style as a choice and whatever I suggested, simply give him a third saving throw proficiency at that level. This way, you can have a fighter that isn't reliant solely on physical saves while, with the proficiency bonus adding to damage, allowing him to still be in the elite of DPR.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Perhaps simply give him a third saving throw proficiency at that level. This way, you can have a fighter that isn't reliant solely on physical saves.

Sure, a WIS and/or CHA save proficiency, for instance, would model the sort of bravery and strength of will that's so typical of the sorts of genre heroes the Champion otherwise evokes.

 

[TwoSix]

EDIT- regarding dialing it back, it has been my experience that it is harder and less pleasant to take something away than it is to give it. Which is why, IMO, it is better to start small and build up as needed than to give too much power to someone and then take the power away.

My concern is that incremental changes to at-will damage tend to get swallowed up by statistical noise.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[TwoSix]

(That said, your math is a little off- advantage gives you a slightly less than 10% chance of rolling a crit, Champion gives you exactly a 10% chance).

I'm pretty sure AaronofBarbaria has already informed us that averages don't matter (or was that the other thread?).

That being said, the difference between an advantage crit and 19-20 crit is 0.25%, i.e. 1 roll in 400. I think he can get away with saying "effectively".

 

[TwoSix]

If they are so small that you don't notice, then it's easy to add something else in. As I wrote, no one complains about adding stuff.

That's what she said?