Spell Path

[Frostbiter01]

OK we have had a discussion and the spell descriptions and the Wizards archives are not clear. I had a battle in the hall way against a number of trolls that were charging the party. The hallway was 20' wide by 10' tall. The Dwarf, Ranger and Cleric created a barrier line taking on the first two trolls with the Rogue helping out with his bow. The Sorcerer was 10' behind the Ranger and wanted to cast fireball behind the two trolls (10'space each) who were blocking all 20' of hallway to hit the 3 other trolls coming up close behind about another 30' back.

As I read these spells if it hits any thing solid it explodes or stops. The Sorcerer fought this and I disagreed. On spells like this before they are quick to say if "I have LOS to at least one corner of his square I can hit him". Now they wanted to put the fireball through the rangers square then the 4 squares of the troll and blast it about 15' behnd them. Am I wrong or is the player? He states that his Sorcerer is a professional so he should have the ability to fire it between flailing legs and arms no matter how many creatures are there, I disagree. This decision would have major effects for many rays and other spells of this type.

Any comments would be appreciated.

 

[Celebrim]

From the SRD - "If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely."

If your mage wants to hit a small target precisely, such something glimpsed between the flailing arms and legs of melee combatants, per the rules he has to make a touch attack. If he fails, it hits the barrier - in this case the PCs.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Unless you're fighting a gelatinous cube, a creature doesn't occupy all of the space it controls. Trolls, in particular, have spindly arms and aren't nearly as voluminous as an ogre.

If the trolls were specifically waving their arms around in order to catch anything that might fly by, I would call for an attack roll. Otherwise, it should be trivial to lob the bead over their heads (possibly impacting on the ceiling behind them, if it has to go straight).

 

[Celebrim]

If the trolls were specifically waving their arms around in order to catch anything that might fly by, I would call for an attack roll. Otherwise, it should be trivial to lob the bead over their heads (possibly impacting on the ceiling behind them, if it has to go straight).

It does have to go straight, but in practice it's usually pretty trivial for a wizard to pick some spot in space that is the intended point of detonation that doesn't require the 'to hit' roll. The 'arrow slit' rule is most commonly evoked exactly in the case of arrow slits. In the case of trolls, it would be relatively trivial to pick a point slightly above and behind the trolls as the point in space that will be the center of detonation.

Fireball is a relatively weak tactic in 3.X (except against swarms and the like) and as such, there is no need to get to pedantic regarding its usage. It does annoy me as a DM when the player spends like a whole minute exactly mapping out where he wants the point of detonation to be, and I do try to hurry it along a bit to simulate the urgency of combat, but there is no sense me as the DM being a jerk about it.

 

[Greenfield]

What they said: PCs and Trolls may provide cover for a given point, but they aren't a wall.

Also, while we always plot them from a grid vertice on the map, they don't actually hive to hit the ground.

So if you want to make them roll a "To Hit" on the spot, start with the idea for hitting a square is something like AC5 ranged touch attack. Adjust for cover. Either that or treat it as concelment, and give it a percentage miss chance.

That second option often makes better story: You can see where you want to put it, but there are an awful lot of heads, arms, bodies and blades between you and it. Roll over 25% and you hit where you want, otherwise it detonates against something in between

 

[Frostbiter01]

Thank you all for your comments.

I like some of these. We did see the arrow slit but as it was brought up it is one thing to have an opening that is fixed but one that is moving around you end up with a much harder touch AC which I believe one of you said to add the concealment or cover that would have affected the spot he was aiming for. Some of you say it is mundane but it is not and you may play fast and loose so that is ok. I know some DMs are Monty hall types & love to give the players everything and make sure they never die. Dragons that fight with no breath weapon, Beholders that only try to use slow and charm or have powerful deities save them are the norm. In other cases they like to insert powerful NPCs to boss or force the players to play they want them to play and save them from all ill woes, so they can DM and play a character themselves. As for me I like the rules to be consistent I feel it is the best way to play and many of my players have agreed.

For instance I mentioned when attacking a creature you apparently can hit those spindly armed creatures if all you can see is one point (corner) of that Trolls space with a small orb or ray so that would mean it also possibly causes an issue if you are trying to fire past that same square. Also if in melee you take a -4 because you don't want to hit your own player, why because they are moving left, right, ducking and jumping in their space, maybe just standing straight and roaring just how much flavor you give your battles will show you how much movement is actually going on in that troll space or character space. Not to mention swords and axes and shields moving to deflect as quick as a blink of an eye. We also have the rule of obstruction. That again is a -4 when a creature is between you and your target. Indeed the Sorcerer wants to hit a 5' square about 15' behind the troll and really not hit the ground they want the fireball to explode at the same height as their hand that deep to engulf all the trolls. So we have melee in front of them, we have obstruction rules in front of the target, and we have the fact that any normal spell says if your spell can enter any of those hexes it hits the target when firing at the troll. Remember, Fireball does not need a touch attack it is a direct spell just like rays and lightening bolt.

I agree it should not be automatic. I know one of you said you don't like the players to measure out exactly but remember these wizards are experts at their craft and can determine precisely where to go. So you have to let them take their template and place it on the map! I thought about using the touch AC of 10 followed by the dex of the creature which would explain a fast accidental move in front of the spell (I never thought any creature could see it and react) all this is accidental, there is a hole to fire through then just like that, there is not as the creature lunges his body to a side or moved his legs together to fend off the rangers blade. Then modify if in melee, and modify if trying to put it in a square directly where they want to go. It seems I would be using all the rules to figure it out.

Thank you again.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So we have melee in front of them, we have obstruction rules in front of the target, and we have the fact that any normal spell says if your spell can enter any of those hexes it hits the target when firing at the troll.

This is where you lost me. The rules say nothing about automatically hitting an interposing target. That's what we're trying to figure out, specifically since the rules don't address this exact situation.

Remember, Fireball does not need a touch attack it is a direct spell just like rays and lightening bolt.

Two points: Rays always require a touch attack, and Fireball also requires a touch attack whenever you're trying to hit a small target (like an arrow slit) with the bead rather than the explosion.

Really, it's just up to DM discretion at this point. The exact situation isn't addressed with the rules, but there are enough sorta-similar things that you can try to piece it together. As long as you have some sort of logic to back up your call, and the players can follow along, it should be okay. If your sorcerer player can't follow along with your logic, then there's going to be some disappointment and questions to the DM's competency.

 

[Frostbiter01]

This is where you lost me. The rules say nothing about automatically hitting an interposing target. That's what we're trying to figure out, specifically since the rules don't address this exact situation.

I believe it is in Wizards Archives under casting spells parts 1-5. It says just like a Wall of force an object blocking the path of sell causes it to interact at that moment. Thus a lightening bolt, a ray r a fireball all ill be stopped where the barrier is. In this case there is no permanent barrier but a moving one. So again like the arrow slit it is just harder.

Thanks again for the help.

 

[Celebrim]

I believe it is in Wizards Archives under casting spells parts 1-5. It says just like a Wall of force an object blocking the path of sell causes it to interact at that moment. Thus a lightening bolt, a ray r a fireball all ill be stopped where the barrier is. In this case there is no permanent barrier but a moving one. So again like the arrow slit it is just harder.

Thanks again for the help.

I don't think it is necessarily harder than the arrow slit. So base DC of a touch attack on an inanimate object is about a 5. If you make that a fine sized object, or something like an arrow slit that provides 90% cover, then that difficulty goes up to maybe a 13 or a 15 maybe. It's not necessarily an easy shot for a wizard, but its very doable.

Making the target move around a bit doesn't really make it worse, because every increased difficulty because the target is moving is offset that the actual space you are trying hit is a good bit bigger than the arrow slit or the coin. I mean even if you adjust in a -4 circumstance penalty (the penalty for example for firing into a melee), you are still talking the equivalent of an AC of 13 or so. A typical 14th level wizard will probably only need a 3 or so to place the bead where he wants it.

 

[Frostbiter01]

I don't think it is necessarily harder than the arrow slit. So base DC of a touch attack on an inanimate object is about a 5. If you make that a fine sized object, or something like an arrow slit that provides 90% cover, then that difficulty goes up to maybe a 13 or a 15 maybe. It's not necessarily an easy shot for a wizard, but its very doable.

The difference here is you are firing through an arrow slit that has fan blades intermittently moving inside. They are not on any timed pattern either. SO you are looking for an opening and hoping you don't hit a random body, arm, leg, shield, weapon and so forth. SO the AC 5 would not be where you would start here.