D&D 5E Shield Mastery Feat

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Wait... what? Are people now arguing that you can't make a shove as an opportunity attack? Seems pretty clear on pg 195 of the PHB to me. Am I missing something here?

[SECTION]OPPORTUNITY ATTACKS
You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack interrupts the provoking creature's movement, occurring right before the creature leaves your reach.[/SECTION]
And...

[SECTION]SHOVING A CREATURE
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.[/SECTION]

Therefore, use Shove as your melee attack during your Attack of Opportunity. Why not? And, to me, Crawford's Sage Advice ruling from 2015 dodges the question, though that is an entirely different action.

Since the tone has changed to a slightly off-topic I'll chime in. The point some of you seem to be missing (sorry, DM Dave1) is the first words of Shoving a Creature: "Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature,..."

You can only use the Attack action on your turn, not on another's turn. On another's turn you can only take Reactions (and Legendary Actions). Since Opportunity Attacks are taken on another's turn, you can't Shove as a Reaction as part of the OA.

The concept of the OA as a Reaction is because you are acting more quickly than usual, making a hasty swing as a foe leaves your reach. The reason the Opportunity Attack allows you to "make one melee attack" instead of granting you an Attack action is so with Extra Attack, characters aren't making two or more swings as Reactions when granted the OA.

Any other understanding really becomes a house-rule, which is fine, but not RAW.

 

[5ekyu]

Wait... what? Are people now arguing that you can't make a shove as an opportunity attack? Seems pretty clear on pg 195 of the PHB to me. Am I missing something here?

[SECTION]OPPORTUNITY ATTACKS
You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack interrupts the provoking creature's movement, occurring right before the creature leaves your reach.[/SECTION]
And...

[SECTION]SHOVING A CREATURE
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.[/SECTION]

Therefore, use Shove as your melee attack during your Attack of Opportunity. Why not? And, to me, Crawford's Sage Advice ruling from 2015 dodges the question, though that is an entirely different action.

"Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack ..."

You cannot be "using the attack action" except on your turn...

 

[Krachek]

The debate oppose two factions.
The Realistics, why can’t I shove my opponent before attacking him?
Of course “shove with the bonus action grant by the feat and by declaring that I would take the attack action later this turn.”
The RAWs, why you don’t understand that you must complete your attack action before taking your bonus action?
They don’t speak the same langage, and the Tongue spell won’t help.
This is an old debate, that show the limits of making rules trying to emulate a fantasy combat.
There is always some bugs and glitches, and periodically people contest the coherence of the system.
The last time it was about choking a spell caster to prevent casting,
Next time it will be about invisbility, or hit points.

 

[5ekyu]

The debate oppose two factions.
The Realistics, why can’t I shove my opponent before attacking him?
The RAWs, why you don’t understand that you must complete your attack action before taking your bonus action?
They don’t speak the same langage, and the Tongue spell won’t help.
This is an old debate, that show the limits of making rules trying to emulate a fantasy combat.
There is always some bugs and glitches, and periodically people contest the coherence of the system.
The last time it was about choking a spell caster to prevent casting,
Next time it will be about invisbility, or hit points.

"The Realistics, why can’t I shove my opponent before attacking him?"
But of course both sides agree you can do just that... you can use your first melee attack of your attack action to shove.

The dispute is about the bonus sction status, not whether you can shove first.

The "why can't I shove first" is the misdirection.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Since the tone has changed to a slightly off-topic I'll chime in. The point some of you seem to be missing (sorry, DM Dave1) is the first words of Shoving a Creature: "Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature,..."

You can only use the Attack action on your turn, not on another's turn. On another's turn you can only take Reactions (and Legendary Actions). Since Opportunity Attacks are taken on another's turn, you can't Shove as a Reaction as part of the OA.

The concept of the OA as a Reaction is because you are acting more quickly than usual, making a hasty swing as a foe leaves your reach. The reason the Opportunity Attack allows you to "make one melee attack" instead of granting you an Attack action is so with Extra Attack, characters aren't making two or more swings as Reactions when granted the OA.

Any other understanding really becomes a house-rule, which is fine, but not RAW.

Yes, granted you can only make one sword swing with an opportunity attack, even if you have the Extra Attack feature. No one is arguing that you can use Extra Attack on the OA.

Ok, I think we all can agree that sword swings and shoves both use the Attack Action, both are melee attacks, and both are able to be used as a Reaction (as in Ready).

With an Attack of Opportunity, you make one melee attack as a Reaction. Why can't that one melee attack be a shove? You seem to argue: because you must take the Attack Action to make a shove, a Shove can ONLY happen on your turn and therefore not as a Reaction. You can see why I disagree. To parse Attack of Opportunity out of Reaction just to eliminate Shove, but allow a sword swing, as a viable option doesn't make sense to me.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Heh... seems to me Jeremy's Sage Advice is accomplishing exactly what they have wanted all along... to get all you people to stop concerning yourselves with the "correct" rule as per some universal gods-eye-view of the game, and instead just make a RULING at your table that makes sense for your table.

All along everyone has been clamoring "How does this rule work?" and they all tell you to follow the book and make a ruling for yourself. But that's never been good enough for some people and they've continued to ask and ask and ask for the "correct" interpretation of all these things. So Jeremy had to just throw up his hands and say "Fine! It works this way...".

And of course everyone then gets their panties in a bunch and say "That's stupid!" At which point Jeremy and WotC come back with "Then make a RULING you are happy with."

Why many of you still insist on ignoring them about that is beyond me.

 

[Krachek]

"The Realistics, why can’t I shove my opponent before attacking him?"
But of course both sides agree you can do just that... you can use your first melee attack of your attack action to shove.

The dispute is about the bonus sction status, not whether you can shove first.

The "why can't I shove first" is the misdirection.

My mistake, I was assuming people would read, “shove with the bonus action grant by the feat and by declaring that I would take the attack action later this turn.”
Your answer give a clue that explains why this thread get so long...

 

[Sean Culligan]

My point is that the books states both a sword swing and brawling are attack actions... pg 192
Also, a sword swing is defined on page 195 as a melee attack and so is a shove or grapple...

PHB 192 - Attack
"The most common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are SWINGING A SWORD... or BRAWLING WITH YOUR FISTS."

The book does not say shoves and grapples REQUIRE the attack action. It says "you can use the attack action". Same as a sword swing.

For an opportunity attack the book says you can make one MELEE attack. It doesn't say sword swing, etc.

If I were to follow the logic of some folks here then a sword swing wouldn't be allowed as an opportunity attack either because it is clearly defined in the book as an "attack action" on page 192.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Yes, granted you can only make one sword swing with an opportunity attack, even if you have the Extra Attack feature. No one is arguing that you can use Extra Attack on the OA.

Ok, I think we all can agree that sword swings and shoves both use the Attack Action, both are melee attacks, and both are able to be used as a Reaction (as in Ready).

With an Attack of Opportunity, you make one melee attack as a Reaction. Why can't that one melee attack be a shove? You seem to argue: because you must take the Attack Action to make a shove, a Shove can ONLY happen on your turn and therefore not as a Reaction. You can see why I disagree. To parse Attack of Opportunity out of Reaction just to eliminate Shove, but allow a sword swing, as a viable option doesn't make sense to me.

I can see why you disagree, but if you rule it that way it is house-rule.

RAW, the Shove special attack can only be done in two ways: as part of "Using an Attack action" as written under the Shoving A Creature (as noted before); and second as a feature of the Shield Master feat, which as has been discussed ad nauseam and also requires the use of an Attack action. Since you can ONLY take Attack actions on your turn, you cannot Shove a Creature outside of your turn, i.e. as an OA reaction.

You are reading "melee attack" as "Attack action", they are two distinct, although similar, things. Again, if it doesn't make sense to follow the RAW, just change it for your game. No harm done if you want to play it that way.

My point is that the books states both a sword swing and brawling are attack actions... pg 192
Also, a sword swing is defined on page 195 as a melee attack and so is a shove or grapple...

PHB 192 - Attack
"The most common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are SWINGING A SWORD... or BRAWLING WITH YOUR FISTS."

The book does not say shoves and grapples REQUIRE the attack action. It says "you can use the attack action". Same as a sword swing.

So you are arguing the semantics of "you can use" instead of "you must use"? Both grappling and shoving state, you can use the attack action, to indicate that by using the attack action, you have the option to invoke a special attack of grappling or shoving. Without the attack action, you are NOT attacking. Period. If you don't attack, you cannot grapple or shove. Note for both grappling and shoving, it further states:

"If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them." (I don't have my book handy, so that quote is from a website, but I know, if not verbatim, it is close to the book wording.)

Thus, this special attack replaces an attack taken by the Attack action.

Also, under Opportunity Attack:

"To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature." (Again, from the website...)

The OA allows you to make one melee attack. Not a "special" melee attack as written under Grappling and Shoving, which both require the Attack action, not an OA.

So, one more time, you and your group can house-rule it however you want. You can ignore the exact wording RAW if you want, but you are, in fact, house-ruling these options if you ignore or misinterpret the RAW.

 

[Sean Culligan]

The OA allows you to make one melee attack. Not a "special" melee attack as written under Grappling and Shoving, which both require the Attack action, not an OA.
.

Shoving and grappling fall under the main"Melee Attacks" section, not the "Special Melee Attacks" section. The mention of these melee attacks being special is within the grapple and shoving rules themselves. What makes them "special"? Well that is written in the rule as well... strength checks.
They are still melee attacks.