D&D 5E Why does Wizards of the Coast hate Wizards?

[Ashrym]

I understand that but, in every written adventure there are always cantrips found in the spell books of wizards. Some adventures you'll even find scrolls of cantrips. So either they forgot that's not suppoed to happen, or they decided to ignore thst stupid rule. Also even if you can't copy them, any cantrip you learn goes in your spellbook, so if you switch every level, you'll eventually get all of them.

And we have always known cantrips count as spells. It's possible to create a cantrip spell scroll but the rules given prevents wizards from scribing them into spell books regardless of finding them listed that way (which I think was simply either convenience or bad editing). NPC spell casters vary from PC spell casters when a person looks at their stat blocks and abilities as well.

That note on cantrips being spells under that bard note isn't a change or new information. It's just a reminder. That's why bards already select cantrips using magical secrets, for example.

The exact same argument already came and went years ago. Cantrips are spells known to wizards. The wizard spell book contains spells of 1st-level or higher. Adding spells while leveling requires the spells use spells slots. Copying spells into the spell book requires the spells to be 1st level per higher according the sidebar for those rules in the PHB.

You lost this argument years ago. The process for PC wizards doesn't allow for scribing cantrips into spell books in the first place, adding them to the spell book via leveling, or start with cantrips in the spell either.

 

[neogod22]

And we have always known cantrips count as spells. It's possible to create a cantrip spell scroll but the rules given prevents wizards from scribing them into spell books regardless of finding them listed that way (which I think was simply either convenience or bad editing). NPC spell casters vary from PC spell casters when a person looks at their stat blocks and abilities as well.

That note on cantrips being spells under that bard note isn't a change or new information. It's just a reminder. That's why bards already select cantrips using magical secrets, for example.

The exact same argument already came and went years ago. Cantrips are spells known to wizards. The wizard spell book contains spells of 1st-level or higher. Adding spells while leveling requires the spells use spells slots. Copying spells into the spell book requires the spells to be 1st level per higher according the sidebar for those rules in the PHB.

You lost this argument years ago. The process for PC wizards doesn't allow for scribing cantrips into spell books in the first place, adding them to the spell book via leveling, or start with cantrips in the spell either.

I wasn't arguing, just giving my opinion. Like I said, when I DM these are things I would implement. To me, it doesn't make sense cantrips aren't treated like other spells.

 

[Ashrym]

I wasn't arguing, just giving my opinion. Like I said, when I DM these are things I would implement. To me, it doesn't make sense cantrips aren't treated like other spells.

They are treated like other spells in most cases. The magical secrets example again.

They get deliberately restricted to avoid abuse with abilities triggered by spell use that aren't meant to be at will and in the spell book case it's because added cantrips to and casting from spell books grossly defies the at-will abilities design in the game. It also steps on sorcerer's extra cantrip and tome warlock's only class benefit that doesn't require an invocation.

The only thing adding cantrips to spells books does is give wizards a huge at-will advantage over other spell casters that directly contradicts the design goals for the sake of moar stuffz or "because that's how I think it should be".

I had thought about allowing it at one time and then ultimately decided against it because that's easily too much impact.

 

[MoonSong]

They are treated like other spells in most cases. The magical secrets example again.

They get deliberately restricted to avoid abuse with abilities triggered by spell use that aren't meant to be at will and in the spell book case it's because added cantrips to and casting from spell books grossly defies the at-will abilities design in the game. It also steps on sorcerer's extra cantrip and tome warlock's only class benefit that doesn't require an invocation.

The only thing adding cantrips to spells books does is give wizards a huge at-will advantage over other spell casters that directly contradicts the design goals for the sake of moar stuffz or "because that's how I think it should be".

I had thought about allowing it at one time and then ultimately decided against it because that's easily too much impact.

Exactly, wizards are fundamentally different from sorcerers and warlocks. We cannot apply entirely symmetrical changes, because they are not equal. Fairness isn't equal treatment to everybody, instead it's equal treatment to the equals. And wizards arent' equals with warlocks and sorcerers, they stand apart on their own space.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Quick aside I agree that a change with level is fine for fighting style, but more often than that is too much.

You can level pretty fast in terms of days, depending on pacing and what variants are in use.
Downtime training might be an interesting way of swapping out combat styles, manuevers, spells known, etc..

 

[neogod22]

They are treated like other spells in most cases. The magical secrets example again.

They get deliberately restricted to avoid abuse with abilities triggered by spell use that aren't meant to be at will and in the spell book case it's because added cantrips to and casting from spell books grossly defies the at-will abilities design in the game. It also steps on sorcerer's extra cantrip and tome warlock's only class benefit that doesn't require an invocation.

The only thing adding cantrips to spells books does is give wizards a huge at-will advantage over other spell casters that directly contradicts the design goals for the sake of moar stuffz or "because that's how I think it should be".

I had thought about allowing it at one time and then ultimately decided against it because that's easily too much impact.

I'm not sure if I understand you. What does wizards putting cantrips in their spellbooks have to do with sorcerers and warlocks? There is no more advantage as with the rest of their class if they can only prepare the same 3 or 4 cantrips that the books say they have, they just have the ability to switch them out.

 

[Ashrym]

I'm not sure if I understand you. What does wizards putting cantrips in their spellbooks have to do with sorcerers and warlocks? There is no more advantage as with the rest of their class if they can only prepare the same 3 or 4 cantrips that the books say they have, they just have the ability to switch them out.

It depends on the intent of cantrips in the spell books. The argument starts that wizards don't prep cantrips and cast all of them at will, like the warlock's book of shadows. That is the more OP version.

The other version is to decide wizards need to prep cantrips too, instead of knowing them. In that example, having 1 more cantrip known becomes a lot less of an advantage over the wizard prepping them because then the wizard can change all of their cantrips as needed based on the current adventure style. Other cantrip users don't have the extra cantrip and are locked in. This isn't as bad as the first version but still immensely better than every other cantrip user in the game by a lot.

It's nothing but unnecessary buff.

 

[MoonSong]

I'm not sure if I understand you. What does wizards putting cantrips in their spellbooks have to do with sorcerers and warlocks? There is no more advantage as with the rest of their class if they can only prepare the same 3 or 4 cantrips that the books say they have, they just have the ability to switch them out.

Because it steps on their niche and gives the wizards a flexibility push they don't need. The fundamental intent of the UA was to give options to players so they aren't stuck with nonfunctional/unwanted choices. In that regard, it makes sense for wizards to slowly change which cantrips they can use. As to why sorcerers and warlocks can change spells in a faster fashion, it's because they are fundamentally way less flexible, so they need a quicker rate of change.

 

[Staffan]

It would be interesting to have a few more bonus action options for wizards, but I don't think they need it since they have action to bonus action spells.
Also as mentioned Wizards are already quite good and the UA class modifications were to shore up some of the weaker parts.

The main reason bonus actions have the convoluted construction they do (where you only have a bonus action if you can do something with it), as well as moving just being a thing you do instead of a Move action, is that the designers wanted to avoid the 4e thing where everyone wanted to maximize their action economy by getting things that used both their major, move, and minor action. So wizards mostly not doing things as bonus actions is Things Working As Intended.

I think you underestimate ants. I mean, an ant can carry 100x it's own body weight, a Campion Fighter isn't a Remarkable enough an Athlete to duplicate that feat. (OK, maybe a 20 STR halfling Champion...)

Well, they certainly aren't Remarkably strong, because then they'd be able to lift a ton.

 

[MoonSong]

It depends on the intent of cantrips in the spell books. The argument starts that wizards don't prep cantrips and cast all of them at will, like the warlock's book of shadows. That is the more OP version.

The other version is to decide wizards need to prep cantrips too, instead of knowing them. In that example, having 1 more cantrip known becomes a lot less of an advantage over the wizard prepping them because then the wizard can change all of their cantrips as needed based on the current adventure style. Other cantrip users don't have the extra cantrip and are locked in. This isn't as bad as the first version but still immensely better than every other cantrip user in the game by a lot.

It's nothing but unnecessary buff.

The only way I would give such a buff to wizards would be to redo the class casting. They no longer prepare spells, instead they are stuck with a maximum of 15 spells known. They can still keep their spellbook as a ritual book, but they start with int bonus rituals and need to spend gold to have more.