D&D 5E Everything wrong with the Wizard Psionics subclass

[Ashrym]

The question, however, was what a Psion could do (or expected to do) that a Wizard cannot. Some of which comes from the Bard and Cleric spell lists. Some are things that come from the Psion power list from 3e/Dreamscarred Press.

Fair enough, but the wizard isn't the best example for comparison if it's just a spell list comparison. The real difference isn't the mechanics so much as the list of powers vs spells.

My point was that most of those powers already exist in the form of spells or are just flavored variations of existing spells.

I would also say the general concept of a seer vs a diviner or a kineticist vs an evoker or a telepath vs enchanter isn't all that significant. That's more of a flavor thing than a mechanical thing. Flavor is easy to change and minor mechanical differences aren't that hard to compensate. That's why I think we might still see the mystic class. Developing and testing a new system take more resources than adapting a system.

 

[Maxperson]

Fair enough, but the wizard isn't the best example for comparison if it's just a spell list comparison. The real difference isn't the mechanics so much as the list of powers vs spells.

My point was that most of those powers already exist in the form of spells or are just flavored variations of existing spells.

Maybe so, but they require a new class for the class abilities that are for Psions, as well as a list of powers that is comprised of "spells" from multiple other classes, as well as some unique ones.

 

[Mistwell]

And again, I'm not at all assuming that.

I'm saying that whatever the number psions can use is, 100% of them will be free of any somatic, material and verbal components. Those things are not a part of that class.

I'm also saying that whatever their number, sorcerers cannot use 100% of them free of those things. They are in fact a part of that class.

It doesn't matter whether sorcerers can cast more or less spells than the psion can use mental abilities. That's irrelevant. All that's relevant is that somatic, material and verbal components are a part of sorcerers, but not psions.

You can make exactly what you are talking about with a sorcerer already. That is my point. You can select the class "sorcerer" and cast all your spells with no components and call it "psion". The mechanics of the sorcerer class permit that style of play without mechanical changes. You may as a player be aware that you're spending points to make that function and selecting only psionic-feeling spells to make that work and casting only as many spells per day as you have points to eliminate the components, but none of that is a mechanical barrier to achieving that objective using that class.

 

[generic]

You can make exactly what you are talking about with a sorcerer already. That is my point. You can select the class "sorcerer" and cast all your spells with no components and call it "psion". The mechanics of the sorcerer class permit that style of play without mechanical changes. You may as a player be aware that you're spending points to make that function and selecting only psionic-feeling spells to make that work and casting only as many spells per day as you have points to eliminate the components, but none of that is a mechanical barrier to achieving that objective using that class.

Again, irrelevant. I can play a Wizard and call it a Sorcerer. This argument is supremely weak.

 

[Maxperson]

You can make exactly what you are talking about with a sorcerer already.

That's simply not possible. It's 100% impossible to have spell components, verbal components and somatic components not be a part of the sorcerer class. Not only are they objectively a part of that class, even if you do use your points on the ability, but you cannot make 100% of your spell fail to use all three of those things. Therefore, it's impossible to achieve what I want with the sorcerer class.

That is my point. You can select the class "sorcerer" and cast all your spells with no components and call it "psion".

Your point is objectively wrong. It's not possible to do that, even before getting into cantrips which can be cast thousands of times per day and have those components to them. Are you really arguing that sorcerers have thousands of points to use?

The mechanics of the sorcerer class permit that style of play without mechanical changes. You may as a player be aware that you're spending points to make that function and selecting only psionic-feeling spells to make that work and casting only as many spells per day as you have points to eliminate the components, but none of that is a mechanical barrier to achieving that objective using that class.

ROFL So now I have to gimp my character to falsely achieve something that truly needs another class?

 

[Maxperson]

You may as a player be aware that you're spending points to make that function and selecting only psionic-feeling spells to make that work and casting only as many spells per day as you have points to eliminate the components, but none of that is a mechanical barrier to achieving that objective using that class.

To further point out just how ridiculous this suggestion is, I'm going to point out that you don't even get sorcery points until 2nd level.

Me: "Well met adventurers. I have heard that you are seeking to defeat the curse that has struck this town and would like to join you."

Party: "What is your profession?"

Me: "I'm a novice Psion."

Party: "And what can you do?"

Me: "Nothing."

Party: "Nothing at all?"

Me: "Nope."

Party: "Then how do you know you are a Psion?"

Me: "Well, I'm just kinda guessing at this point, but I have a really good feeling that after about a half dozen fights where I use this staff here worse than most farmers, I'm going to be able to do stuff."

Party: "Like what?"

Me: "Well, I'll have four cantrips and three minor powers."

Party: "Ahh, so you'll be able to do all of that?"

Me: "Nope. I'll only be able to do two things all day. If I use 2 cantrips, I won't be able to use 2 of my more powerful spells. However, if I will also be able to use 2 spells that are more powerful than cantrips, but then no cantrips. @Mistwell thinks that makes a lot more sense than actually having a class of my own. I don't get it, though."

Party: "Well, we're going to leave you here and pick up that novice sorcerer over there who even now can use cantrips all day long and still cast 2 spells on top of that. The bartender has a job opening, though. Maybe after enough bar fights, you'll become that substandard sorcerer you were talking about."

Me: "......"

 

[Mistwell]

ROFL So now I have to gimp my character to falsely achieve something that truly needs another class?

And now, after several times going back and forth, you're finally caught up to where we started this where I said you were making a power level assumption using a false baseline. It's not "gimping" and there was nothing "false" in how you can use the mechanics of a sorcerer to achieve a psion goal. The baseline is NOT some number of spells based on what a sorcerer can normally cast. Which is why I said you're assuming that. And you just did. You caught up now?

 

[Maxperson]

And now, after several times going back and forth, you're finally caught up to where we started this where I said you were making a power level assumption using a false baseline. It's not "gimping" and there was nothing "false" in how you can use the mechanics of a sorcerer to achieve a psion goal. The baseline is NOT some number of spells based on what a sorcerer can normally cast. Which is why I said you're assuming that. And you just did. You caught up now?

No. You are objectively gimping the Psion with your suggestion. Hell, if we follow your suggestion the "Psion" can't use a single power before hitting 2nd level. Your suggestion is major fail, and with no assumptions on my part.

 

[Mistwell]

No. You are objectively gimping the Psion with your suggestion.

There is no way to gimp something which doesn't exist yet. But hey thanks for being honest and admitting you were in fact assuming some power baseline earlier. Oh wait...

 

[SkidAce]

I want what @Maxperson wants, but I understand(?) what @Mistwell is saying.

Because while waiting for a psion class, I have been using the sorcerer chassis.

No components rule. Use any SP to meta the appropriate psion flavored spells as needed.

I don't make them use their SP to do no components, I ignore components for the "psion".

Dispel Magic does not work on psionics, and Dispel Psionics does not work in magic.

This is carrying us through the wait. (The main villan is a psion (really a battlemaster/sorcerer) with mutated ability to mindflayer blast.