D&D 5E Swordmage! (+thread)

[Garthanos]

I keep coming back to this fear:

Is this a class that is presumably as good as a fighter in combat in nearly all aspects (probably much better than him in others), that has more skills, that can perform magical rituals and cast spells?

Presumedly half caster like Paladin

 

[FrogReaver]

Presumedly half caster like Paladin

A Paladin isn't more skilled, doesn't get rituals. Also a Paladin only keeps up with a fighter in combat if he turns virtually all of his spell slots into smites.

That's a world of difference from what I see being proposed here.

 

[Garthanos]

Also a Paladin only keeps up with a fighter in combat if he turns virtually all of his spell slots into smites

This latter part is presumably pretty much identical. You can do more some other effects or you can buff your fighting...

 

[FrogReaver]

This latter part is presumably pretty much identical. You can do more some other effects or you can buff your fighting...

That's not the direction I'm seeing this going. Admittedly we don't have a alpha version, just some broad ritual concepts and such.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

@doctorbadwolf :

Since you asked, I wasn't planning to chime in as I don't see the need for such a class and I never played 4E so I have no clue what a Swordmage should or shouldn't do.

However, coming late to the game and judging from your OP, do you envision the Swordmage as the half-caster version for the Wizard, akin to the Paladin-Cleric, Ranger-Druid concept, making it the Swordmage-Wizard to match the others?

Or, should the sowrdmage have spell-like features, but not actual spells?

Think 4 elements monk, in terms of casting and spell-like features, with ritual casting and magical armor and weapon features instead of martial arts. A mix of monk and a nerdy equivalent to the ranger.

I'd want to see a little more right now. Assuming it's a null-caster, it's got a basic fighter chassis with a scaling armor feature and the tome warlock special invocation. The Aegis and the point based maneuvers are doing a lot of undefined work, so it's difficult to evaluate without a little more flesh there.

that’s fair. It’s more on a monk chassis, btw. Or rather a mix of monk and ranger chassis. It’s not a null caster, but a point based and ritual caster with manuver style abilities that run on the same point system, like the 4 elements monk.
It probably won’t be at the high end of half caster martial ability, because it will be more like the ranger in terms of utility, but with a more

If you are referring to me -
I'm in favor of having both a magic ritual based sword fighting class and a shroud using warrior type class.

The biggest part of your pushback IMO has been on your inflexibility you have with names. Consider what the difference would have been if you had opened the thread with, "I want a class with these mechanics that meet these design goals. These are my fictional sources of inspiritaon. I'm thinking I may call the class X but not really interested in the name at the moment". Half the thread instantly leaving more room in the early pages of it for your creation.

The name is the name. Why fixate on it so much that you turn to threadcrapping about it?

If the goal for the class is to demonstrate that the character has a breadth of knowledge from a multitude of different training regimens, then sure, I could get behind 3 class skills.

A possible compromise approach might be 2 proficiencies to start, and then an additional specific skill gained from the subclass at level 3.

Well, yeah, that’s exactly the core concept. Its odd that jack of all trades was proposed but 3 skills seems out of line? Jack of all trades is a much bigger skill boost than 1 skill proficiency.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The swordmage should have Arcana and acrobatics or athletics and perhaps investigation/medicine. just as much as a Ranger should have Nature and Survival and perhaps Stealth.

The base class can already cover Arcana and Athletics. I'm not seeing a requirement for Investigation/Medicine before backgrounds get involved.

If I were shooting for a more true Thibaults flavor Investigation would be the primary skill with which they analyse their opponents and the battlefield and have it doing more things for them

Thing is I don't know for certain but I suspect it is not seeing this as just studious it is studious and athletic the idea is a merger of the physical and mental and that does in my opinion influence breadth. It's kind of a definition of breadth having widely disparate kind of education not just widely separate options but ones that are used in the art itself.

When I made a thibaults build for 4e it had some real reasons to be trained in healing and those were incorporated into how it did its damage (see Sherlock holmes with RDJ as an example of that flavor)

Perhaps the Striker archetype might get an additional skill in medicine?

Bear in mind that (AFAICT) this is not a class that fights through martial techniques like complex calculations of physical angle and anatomical exactness.
This is a class that shoots lightning out of its blade, teleports or telekinetically controls their sword and can cast spells like Illusory Script or Leomund's Tiny Hut.
I would say that Arcana has definitely replaced Medicine for this concept.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The base class can already cover Arcana and Athletics. I'm not seeing a requirement for Investigation/Medicine before backgrounds get involved.




Bear in mind that (AFAICT) this is not a class that fights through martial techniques like complex calculations of physical angle and anatomical exactness.
This is a class that shoots lightning out of its blade, teleports or telekinetically controls their sword and can cast spells like Illusory Script or Leomund's Tiny Hut.
I would say that Arcana has definitely replaced Medicine for this concept.

The two aren’t mutually exclusive.

And the concept is exactly a combatant that uses complex mathematics and anatomical knowledge as part of its martial prowess. It’s The Magic Circle, but actually magic.

edit: in the draft of the introductory fluff I posted, I even describe a character Drawing The Circle in his mind and gaining basically a magical HUD that shows him the math of battle.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

A Paladin isn't more skilled, doesn't get rituals. Also a Paladin only keeps up with a fighter in combat if he turns virtually all of his spell slots into smites.

That's a world of difference from what I see being proposed here.

I haven’t ever suggested anything like a full fighter + other stuff.

I’ve suggest a character using the monk and ranger as balance comparisons.

it has a limited resource system. Did you think that was gonna go on top of extra feats and multiple extra attacks and something like action surge?

No. It’s going to be like a monk without stunning strike or Unarmored movement, with magical weapon attacks that enhance the attack action, and lesser unarmored AC feature than the monk gets, and in place gets more utility because the concept is a well rounded hermetic weapon-master, which means the kind of person who writes fighting manuals that are also manuals on alchemy and mysticism.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So to make things clearer,

The Aegis should provide the AC calculation and some other benefit depending on an Aegis choice and your subclass. The flavor text will reference things like sacred geometry and the use of mathematics to better understand how to fight. Your magic manifests your geometric understanding of the battlefield into your vision as a series of circles, intersecting lines, and other esoteric geometry, showing you how the many “moving parts” of the battle can and will move and strike, allowing you to bend your intellect to the task of protecting yourself, and manipulating the course of battle.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Think 4 elements monk, in terms of casting and spell-like features, with ritual casting and magical armor and weapon features instead of martial arts. A mix of monk and a nerdy equivalent to the ranger.

Well, TBH, I am not very familiar with 4-elements monk, but basically it seems you are against spell slots, but want ritual casting and such. Instead of ki, would you want a magic points system or similar to power any magical and spell-like features? Also, instead of "outdoor" skills like the ranger, it would have the "nerdy" skills for accessing lore or something about magic?