D&D General Hey, are we all cool with having to buy the same book twice, or what?

[eyeheartawk]

Look, if you hate corporations and corporate products than you're hanging around the WRONG subforum. This one is dedicated solely to the corporate created and published RPG Dungeons & Dragons, which has been wholly owned by Hasbro—the world's biggest toy company—for twenty years.
I'm sure you'll be happier hanging around one of ENWorld's other fine forums that discuss smaller RPGs made by non-corporate bodies. There's many, many excellent games by smaller publishers that you can talk about.

Criticize WOTC therefore you can't like D&D?

You went beyond drinking the kool-aid, you built out, staffed and are operating a kool-aid production plant.

Let's not forget the game was invented by two middle aged bearded nerds in the midwest. Sort of the opposite of a wholly corporate conceived product. TSR didn't even want to sell adventures at first because they didn't see the point!

Also, Beadle & Grim is self-indulgent ludicrously priced twoddle sold by a guy who smokes weed with a dog.

 

[Jester David]

Criticize WOTC therefore you can't like D&D?

WotC makes all kinds of bad moves and silly decisions. But they're not automatically evil because they're a gasp business. WotC is company staffed by people. Awesome people. People gamers now know by name and has spent a long decade trying to work with the gaming community and build a positive relationship with.

This isn't the litigious WotC of 2004. This is the DnD team that almost lost D&D and watched the game burn in the 2010s and has slowly built back up the trust of their fans.

They've forking EARNED my defense of them.

Let's not forget the game was invented by two middle aged bearded nerds in the midwest. Sort of the opposite of a wholly corporate conceived product. TSR didn't even want to sell adventures at first because they didn't see the point!

A couple bearded middle aged nerds who then went to court fighting over money until it was just one bearded middle aged nerd who relentlessly quashed anyone who claimed to have helped invent D&D and deny them a piece of its success.

The TSR—or T$R as it was better known by us old types—was not a happy, positive company.

Also, Beadle & Grim is self-indulgent ludicrously priced twoddle sold by a guy who smokes weed with a dog.

It's self-indulgent ludicrously priced twoddle created as a mid-life crisis by a semi-famous actor that has made a lot of gamers happy and added life to people's campaigns, enriching their gaming experience?

What will your mid-life crisis do?

 

[eyeheartawk]

WotC makes all kinds of bad moves and silly decisions. But they're not automatically evil because they're a gasp business. WotC is company staffed by people. Awesome people. People gamers now know by name and has spent a long decade trying to work with the gaming community and build a positive relationship with.

This isn't the litigious WotC of 2004. This is the DnD team that almost lost D&D and watched the game burn in the 2010s and has slowly built back up the trust of their fans.

They've forking EARNED my defense of them.

Okay, but you still haven't told me what sub-forum I'm allowed to post in.

A couple bearded middle aged nerds who then went to court fighting over money until it was just one bearded middle aged nerd who relentlessly quashed anyone who claimed to have helped invent D&D and deny them a piece of its success.

The TSR—or T$R as it was better known by us old types—was not a happy, positive company.

I'm well aware of what eventually happened, though I was talking more like 1975 here.

It's weird though, how after a bunch of money was made and TSR ran more and more like a corporation a bunch of bad and disliked stuff happened. Huh.

It's self-indulgent ludicrously priced twoddle created as a mid-life crisis by a semi-famous actor that has made a lot of gamers happy and added life to people's campaigns, enriching their gaming experience?

What will your mid-life crisis do?

Good question. I don't know yet. Whatever it is, I'll charge people $450 for the privilege of finding out though.

 

[Jester David]

Okay, but you still haven't told me what sub-forum I'm allowed to post in.

Well, since you don't want to support any evil crypto-fascist corporations making money you'll want to stay away from the D&D forum.
Since there's literally no way to be a "D&D fan" without buying the books and thus supporting the business of Wizards of the Coast. Or being a hypocrite by giving money to WotC and continuing to spread the word of their product while criticizing them. (That's like protesting sweat shops while wearing Nike clothing.)

And the "Pathfinder & Starfinder" forum. Since the "C" in Paizo LLC stands for "corporation". Probably "Other Tabletop Games" since physical games have a cost and that means being a business. And that will apparently make you upset.

"RPG General" should be safe. Buy you'll probably want to limit your conversation to games given away for free. But nothing on DriveThruRPG, even if it's free there, as DriveThru is itself a business and in it for the money.
I've seen some free RPGs shared on Reddit and some other places. Those should be safe.
It's a shame more registered charities and non-profits don't produce roleplaying games...

I'm well aware of what eventually happened, though I was talking more like 1975 here.

Well, since 90% of D&D fans weren't even born then I don't think what happened is particularly relevant to the vast, vast majority of D&D discussions.

It's weird though, how after a bunch of money was made and TSR ran more and more like a corporation a bunch of bad and disliked stuff happened. Huh.

Well, it is the root of all evil.
If only they'd stuck to giving away copies of the game to people in their gaming circle then no one would have been corrupted by that evil money (and none of us would know what D&D is).

Good question. I don't know yet. Whatever it is, I'll charge people $450 for the privilege of finding out though.

I've paid more for less.

 

[eyeheartawk]

Well, since you don't want to support any evil crypto-fascist corporations making money you'll want to stay away from the D&D forum.
Since there's literally no way to be a "D&D fan" without buying the books and thus supporting the business of Wizards of the Coast. Or being a hypocrite by giving money to WotC and continuing to spread the word of their product while criticizing them. (That's like protesting sweat shops while wearing Nike clothing.)

I like how criticizing specific business practices = my position being that all businesses are evil crypto-fascist entities somehow. But yeah, sure, seize the means of RPG production, whatever.

Though, if that were my position, couldn't I just buy used books, and therefore completely obliviate your justification for gatekeeping?

I've paid more for less.

God, I hope not.

 

[teitan]

They're separate products. You can buy one, the other, both or neither. Nobody is forcing you to buy anything. Buy it if it is worth it to you. Don't if it is not.

Let's say that you buy both. And all of both. That might be $2000 if you're not smart about how you do it.

You've been able to play 5E since June 2014. Let's say you play 4 hours a week on average since release of the game. We won't count any of the time you spent happily thinking about the game when you were not playing, because obviously we don't draw any additional pleasure form thinking about the game, visiting free message boards about the game, preparing for games, etc... We'll just focus on that roughly 1000 hours at the table estimated for 5E that people with a regular weekly game might have enjoyed. YOU'RE PAYING $2 per hour.

Oh, wait, you only play half that much? $4 per hour if you bought everything, and were not wise about it.

When it comes to spending money on entertainment, RPGs are some of the best options for maximizing fun and minimizing cost. You can play a really fun PC for $0 with free materials! Heck, you can use a dice app and not even buy dice!

I get that not everybody can afford $2000 for books and virtual content. I get that there can be other costs. I also know that one of the best DMs I have ever met never spent a penny on the game in 30 years of play (RIP, Bud). But, if you want to argue that they're ripping you off.... well, it just doesn't add up.

These arguments are great. I heartily agree but it implies one thing... that you are able to play that long or get to play at all. And there is that whole if you stick with an edition thing and the whole will the service still be around, will I be able to access my material in the future because look at DDI. They lost access to characters and Magazines.

 

[teitan]

These arguments are great. I heartily agree but it implies one thing... that you are able to play that long or get to play at all. And there is that whole if you stick with an edition thing and the whole will the service still be around, will I be able to access my material in the future because look at DDI. They lost access to characters and Magazines.

Also I’m cool with DDB. I just can’t justify to myself paying for the books twice or digital only. Let them make that $$$

 

[Parmandur]

These arguments are great. I heartily agree but it implies one thing... that you are able to play that long or get to play at all. And there is that whole if you stick with an edition thing and the whole will the service still be around, will I be able to access my material in the future because look at DDI. They lost access to characters and Magazines.

After approximately a billion years of availability after 4E went out of print...

 

[Mercurius]

It's been three years since D&D Beyond launched and I see many people, here and elsewhere, gladly pay for the physical copy of a release and then again for the virtual copy.

There are companies 1/100th the size of WotC that will gladly provide a virtual copy of the physical book you bought for free, and have been doing it for years (Not to mention they're generally normal PDFs that aren't tied to a service).

My question is this: is the consensus that this is fine and normal and the other publishers are wrong or should we be banging a drum about how this is a anti-consumer practice?

You don't "have to" do anything. I rarely buy PDFs/virtual copies, so it isn't an issue.

That said, if I were a publisher I'd include a coupon code in physical books for something like 30-50% off the virtual price.

 

[teitan]

After approximately a billion years of availability after 4E went out of print...

Oh sure but prowling forums shows me some people were still paying and using it for their 4e games and they lost their stuff. I get what you’re laying down but for some people it was a huge loss of years of material.