D&D General Hey, are we all cool with having to buy the same book twice, or what?

[Parmandur]

Given the current situation, I can understand this sentiment.

WotC has actually been offering free digital products daily.

Combined with the fact that the basic rules are also free, and a basic account on D&D Beyond is free, and allows you to add any homebrew content you’d like, I’d say that they’re doing a good job of supporting the game.

People can literally get everything they need to play right now, for free.

This is why the complaint for PDFs just doesn’t have much weight to it.

Certainly absurd to use it as a springboard whine about "anti-consumer practices" without demonstrating an understanding of the term...

 

[Jester David]

I'm glad we're back to you explaining what and where people can post. It's pleasant.

I'm not telling you you CAN'T post here. I'm saying if you do come here and start swinging, people are going to hit back.
Free speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

C'mon man, what did you really expect?
This is a D&D fan site that is literally full of D&D fans. Attacking the people who make D&D—a thing everyone here loves—is going to provoke a negative reaction. Because people are defensive of things they love.

I've been playing D&D for twenty-seven years. Since a time well before voice broke and I even pretended to shave. I met my best friends playing D&D. Some of my favourite memories are playing D&D. It is huge important part of my life?
Why would I not instinctively defend it like a mama bear?

But, seriously, let's go back to your original post:

It's been three years since D&D Beyond launched and I see many people, here and elsewhere, gladly pay for the physical copy of a release and then again for the virtual copy.

There are companies 1/100th the size of WotC that will gladly provide a virtual copy of the physical book you bought for free, and have been doing it for years (Not to mention they're generally normal PDFs that aren't tied to a service).

My question is this: is the consensus that this is fine and normal and the other publishers are wrong or should we be banging a drum about how this is a anti-consumer practice?

Okay, you're basically making a call to action against WotC for "anti-consumer practice" because they're charging for a physical copy AND a virtual copy.
And we called you out on that argument's errors:

1) Most other RPG company's don't give free virtual copies. And those that do only do when purchased from their online store.
2) Non-RPG books—by both small and large publishers—also don't give out free ebooks with purchase of a physical copy
3) DnDBeyond isn't an ebook but an ebook and a character builder run by a different company whose employees deserve to be paid
4) Since DnDBeyond launched three years after 5e there'd be no way to give out ebooks to people who had already purchased between those dates
5) If they changed their policy now, there'd be no way to give out ebooks to the people who purchased in the intervening six years or refund people who already purchased twice
6) Most of us DO happily buy the book two or even three times, and might have copies purchased just for a fancy cover

It's not anti-consumer to us because many of us ASKED for a digital character builder, and are happy with the options provided by DndBeyond (purchase vs subscription, microtransaction vs complete book, DM sharing content)

And you insisted on continuing to argue. Because your intent here doesn't appear to be discussing if we should have PDFs or not, or how that could be done. It's to attack WotC as an anti-consumer institution. And when your argument against DnDBeyond failed to resonate you switched to attacking WotC based on Hasbro's overall ethical/ unethical behaviour (including the mistreatment of workers in factories not owned or operated by Hasbro but by companies hired by Hasbro to do manufacturing).
And you're continuing this attack in a place full of consumers who are happy with that company and continue to support it.
We're not the target audience of your rant.

You might have more luck on the Paizo boards. Or therpgsite.com. You might be very well received there.

 

[Parmandur]

I'm not telling you you CAN'T post here. I'm saying if you do come here and start swinging, people are going to hit back.
Free speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

C'mon man, what did you really expect?
This is a D&D fan site that is literally full of D&D fans. Attacking the people who make D&D—a thing everyone here loves—is going to provoke a negative reaction. Because people are defensive of things they love.

I've been playing D&D for twenty-seven years. Since a time well before voice broke and I even pretended to shave. I met my best friends playing D&D. Some of my favourite memories are playing D&D. It is huge important part of my life?
Why would I not instinctively defend it like a mama bear?

But, seriously, let's go back to your original post:

Okay, you're basically making a call to action against WotC for "anti-consumer practice" because they're charging for a physical copy AND a virtual copy.
And we called you out on that argument's errors:

1) Most other RPG company's don't give free virtual copies. And those that do only do when purchased from their online store.
2) Non-RPG books—by both small and large publishers—also don't give out free ebooks with purchase of a physical copy
3) DnDBeyond isn't an ebook but an ebook and a character builder run by a different company whose employees deserve to be paid
4) Since DnDBeyond launched three years after 5e there'd be no way to give out ebooks to people who had already purchased between those dates
5) If they changed their policy now, there'd be no way to give out ebooks to the people who purchased in the intervening six years or refund people who already purchased twice
6) Most of us DO happily buy the book two or even three times, and might have copies purchased just for a fancy cover

It's not anti-consumer to us because many of us ASKED for a digital character builder, and are happy with the options provided by DndBeyond (purchase vs subscription, microtransaction vs complete book, DM sharing content)

And you insisted on continuing to argue. Because your intent here doesn't appear to be discussing if we should have PDFs or not, or how that could be done. It's to attack WotC as an anti-consumer institution. And when your argument against DnDBeyond failed to resonate you switched to attacking WotC based on Hasbro's overall ethical/ unethical behaviour (including the mistreatment of workers in factories not owned or operated by Hasbro but by companies hired by Hasbro to do manufacturing).
And you're continuing this attack in a place full of consumers who are happy with that company and continue to support it.
We're not the target audience of your rant.

You might have more luck on the Paizo boards. Or therpgsite.com. You might be very well received there.

Heck, some of us don't use or pay for Beyond, and still think the setup is cool and reasonable.

 

[darjr]

Has anyone tried playing D&D with JUST the free stuff? Huh, I might try that.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

They provide 3 distinct digital avenues already.

None of them can be described as "just a reproduction of the physical book to be used in an e-reader, nothing else, thank you very much", and that's what many people want, especially at this time.

 

[eyeheartawk]

I'm not telling you you CAN'T post here. I'm saying if you do come here and start swinging, people are going to hit back.
Free speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

C'mon man, what did you really expect?
This is a D&D fan site that is literally full of D&D fans. Attacking the people who make D&D—a thing everyone here loves—is going to provoke a negative reaction. Because people are defensive of things they love.

I've been playing D&D for twenty-seven years. Since a time well before voice broke and I even pretended to shave. I met my best friends playing D&D. Some of my favourite memories are playing D&D. It is huge important part of my life?
Why would I not instinctively defend it like a mama bear?

Because you're an adult? Like, I love D&D yet I am capable of separating the product from the company that makes it.

I happen to also think the index in the PHB is rubbish. That an affront to your 27 years of cherished memories too?

1) Most other RPG company's don't give free virtual copies. And those that do only do

I said many do, and some are a tiny fraction of WotC's size. Also, this bit about direct purchasing only you seem to be stuck on simply isn't true. Here are 113 examples:

Home Page | Bits and Mortar

www.bits-and-mortar.com

2) Non-RPG books—by both small and large publishers—also don't give out free ebooks with purchase of a physical copy

Okay. We are not talking about the norm in fiction publishing. For reference material, which a rulebook is, it should be. Go ask a college student if they think a textbook they paid money for should also come with the PDF.

3) DnDBeyond isn't an ebook but an ebook and a character builder run by a different company whose employees deserve to be paid

Yeah, they do. I don't want free access to DnDBeyond. Their toolset is fine. I object to the fact that I have to buy the rules there, if I want official electronic rules, they're not PDFs in the traditional sense, but the closest thing we got. Also, that I would lose access at some point in the future. So you know, not great from a consumer standpoint. If you want them you don't own them in perpetuity and are forced into an virtual ecosystem you may have no interest in.

4) Since DnDBeyond launched three years after 5e there'd be no way to give out ebooks to people who had already purchased between those dates

And? Take the companies that participate in Bits and Mortar for example. I assume there was a time where they want from not providing PDFs with purchase to providing them. Where was the outrage? I don't see how this is a negative.

5) If they changed their policy now, there'd be no way to give out ebooks to the people who purchased in the intervening six years or refund people who already purchased twice

What's the problem? I thought the rules on DnDBeyond are distinctly not PDFs but part of a greater toolkit that are uniquely distinct? How would they be paying twice?

6) Most of us DO happily buy the book two or even three times, and might have copies purchased just for a fancy cover

Okay. That's great. That doesn't really matter when we're talking about whether PDFs should he made available though.

You might have more luck on the Paizo boards. Or therpgsite.com. You might be very well received there.

Post your meanie mean pants things about Hasbro elsewhere, mister!

 

[Parmandur]

None of them can be described as "just a reproduction of the physical book to be used in an e-reader, nothing else, thank you very much", and that's what many people want, especially at this time.

Apparently, the folks who would prefer that are not a sufficient market segment for Wizards of the Coast. And that's cool, they still provide plentiful options at reasonable prices.

 

[Parmandur]

Because you're an adult? Like, I love D&D yet I am capable of separating the product from the company that makes it.

I happen to also think the index in the PHB is rubbish. That an affront to your 27 years of cherished memories too?



I said many do, and some are a tiny fraction of WotC's size. Also, this bit about direct purchasing only you seem to be stuck on simply isn't true. Here are 113 examples:

Home Page | Bits and Mortar

www.bits-and-mortar.com

Okay. We are not talking about the norm in fiction publishing. For reference material, which a rulebook is, it should be. Go ask a college student if they think a textbook they paid money for should also come with the PDF.



Yeah, they do. I don't want free access to DnDBeyond. Their toolset is fine. I object to the fact that I have to buy the rules there, if I want official electronic rules, they're not PDFs in the traditional sense, but the closest thing we got. Also, that I would lose access at some point in the future. So you know, not great from a consumer standpoint. If you want them you don't own them in perpetuity and are forced into an virtual ecosystem you may have no interest in.



And? Take the companies that participate in Bits and Mortar for example. I assume there was a time where they want from not providing PDFs with purchase to providing them. Where was the outrage? I don't see how this is a negative.



What's the problem? I thought the rules on DnDBeyond are distinctly not PDFs but part of a greater toolkit that are uniquely distinct? How would they be paying twice?



Okay. That's great. That doesn't really matter when we're talking about whether PDFs should he made available though.



Post your meanie mean pants things about Hasbro elsewhere, mister!

Not invested in Hasbro themselves, but it is funny seeing an attempt made to play an objectively ethical company off as "The Man" and then accusing other people of not being adults.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

There's something kinda off about equating really mild examples of "theft" to scum.

Reminds me quite strongly of the psychopaths in my retail store who talk aout how they wish they could shoot shoplifters.

Just kina squicks me out.

Sorry what? Talk about taking what I said and blowing it way out of proportion.

Let me amend that then.

Ethical consumption is impossible under current circumstances, and will continue to be impossible for the next several thousand years.

I dunno, I buy milk from a farm that gives the cows fitbits so they know they're getting enough exercise. That seems like ethical consumption to me.

 

[Jester David]

I said many do, and some are a tiny fraction of WotC's size. Also, this bit about direct purchasing only you seem to be stuck on simply isn't true. Here are 113 examples:

That's great.
Does it include Chapters/Indigo? Target? Amazon?
No? Then it doesn't really work for a surprisingly large percentage of the audience that doesn't live near a game store.

How does Bits and Mortar work? Well, when someone buys the book, the retailer contacts B&M.
Is B&M set-up to respond to hundreds of emails from stores every day just related to D&D? Probably not. Do you really want to trust the clerk of your local big box book store with that task, or have them do it while people behind you wait in line?

The scale and availabiliy of D&D's sales is beyond what B&M can handle. It is for small micro-publishers only.

Okay. We are not talking about the norm in fiction publishing. For reference material, which a rulebook is, it should be. Go ask a college student if they think a textbook they paid money for should also come with the PDF.

Yes, that would have been nice.

It would have also have been nice to get a free ebook of the Witcher boxed set I bought. Or the new Dresden Files book I have on pre-order. Given I have that on order from Amazon, a Kindle copy could be automatic.
Heck, an Audible copy might be nice as well.

But I'm not going to pop over to the Roc publishing website and complain that I deserve a free electronic copy of Peace Talks because I pre-ordered. And I don't think it's "anti-consumer" for them not to give me something beyond what I paid for.

Yeah, they do. I don't want free access to DnDBeyond. Their toolset is fine. I object to the fact that I have to buy the rules there, if I want official electronic rules, they're not PDFs in the traditional sense, but the closest thing we got. Also, that I would lose access at some point in the future. So you know, not great from a consumer standpoint. If you want them you don't own them in perpetuity and are forced into an virtual ecosystem you may have no interest in.

That's fine. Then don't buy it.

At this point you're complaining that you're not being given a free copy of something you don't want anyway.

And? Take the companies that participate in Bits and Mortar for example. I assume there was a time where they want from not providing PDFs with purchase to providing them. Where was the outrage? I don't see how this is a negative.

You don't think there's a slight difference in a few hundred or a thousand fans not getting a free PDF versus one or two million?

What's the problem? I thought the rules on DnDBeyond are distinctly not PDFs but part of a greater toolkit that are uniquely distinct? How would they be paying twice?

By "changing their policy" I mean "giving free electronic copies with purchase".

Okay. That's great. That doesn't really matter when we're talking about whether PDFs should he made available though.

But you didn't ask "should PDFs be made available?"
You asked "is the consensus that [paying for the physical copy of a release and then again for the virtual copy] is fine and normal and the other publishers are wrong or should we be banging a drum about how this is a anti-consumer practice?"
And the answer was "yes, it's fine." And then you proceeded to argue against the consensus...

If you're asking "should WotC add PDFs of the 5e core rulebooks to the Dungeon Master's Guild?" I don't think anyone here would say "no."
PDFs? That would be nice. Sure. Why not?
But should said PDFs be free with purchase? Probably not, because that creates all kinds of nightmares and logistical problems.
(And, really, anyone who really wants PDFs probably already has them...)

Post your meanie mean pants things about Hasbro elsewhere, mister!

Or, y'know "if you don't want to spend two days getting continually attacked and have people agree with you try _____"