D&D 5E Sorcerer Changes

[Ruin Explorer]

My personal experience is all campaigns have idiosyncratic elements that encourage ‘niche’ play.

I don't know about all, but many, perhaps even most, sure.

A particularly common example is the 5MWD vs. recommend 6-8 servings/day, too. If a campaign involves a lot of short adventuring days (as ones with tons of "overland" adventures as opposed to dungeons/quasi-dungeons tend), then any class which is powerful in a 5MWD situation becomes significantly stronger. Sorcerer is one of those. Any class which is steady, like a Fighter, or short-rest-dependent, like a Warlock, becomes less powerful. If you have 6-8 encounters/day (or more!) then 5MWD-type characters become less and less powerful the more encounters you have per day, where the other types gain in relative power.

And just a couple of clumsily-implemented or heavy-handed house rules can easily turn a niche thing into "wackily overpowered", or totally break a perfectly good class/subclass, for example.

A player that decides to Min/Max more unusual options then “EB Pew-Pewness”, has more to work with in the Sorcerer class. That is my opinion at least.

Sure. Warlocks are the class you pick if you want to kill the hell out of people with Eldritch Blast, essentially, min-max-wise.

But Wizards are the class you pick if you want to "min/max the more unusual options" in terms of Arcane spellcasting. Not Sorcerers. And that's the issue I'm attempting to highlight. There's not really anything Sorcerers are "best at" that isn't pretty obscure or reliant on the game being played in a broken way (and 5MWD is actually broken, not just "OP" or whatever).

It metamagic was more powerful and/or if Sorcerers got access to a lot more metamagic at lower levels (they get shockingly few of the possible options) I think it might be a bit different.

 

[jgsugden]

You don't anywhere near consensus to have a conventional wisdom. A stance held by the majority of concerned parties is enough to establish a CW.

“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” -Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride.

A consensus is an agreement. It is often reflective of more than half of a group being on board with a decision. Rules may provide for a decision requiring more (or even less) of a percentage, but the most common way to get a consensus is to have more than half agree to something.

Conventional wisdom, by definition, is a generally accepted theory or belief. To be generally accepted, most people must share the belief. If more than a small minority do not share the belief, it is not generally accepted.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[EpicureanDM]

Here are the Sorcerer house rules I've collected and used over the years. Hope some of them are helpful.

• Constitution is the primary stat for Sorcerers. Power comes from your blood, not your face.
• Sorcerers can use a free hand as a material component, it emphasizes the power within. Still need verbal and somatic components, still need expendable components if the spell requires them.
• Use the spell point system from the DMG. Put spell points and sorcery points into the same pool. We tend to call it the spell pool, but the important thing to remember is that the pool can be used for spells, metamagic, or both. Just one, big, slushy pool.
• All sorcerers know all forms of metamagic once they hit 3rd level. Their access to metamagic is restricted at first and loosens up as they gain levels.
  • You get three metamagic "slots" at 3rd level, which means that you have access to three types at a time. You can swap different forms of metamagic into those slots after each long rest if you wish.
  • You get more slots as you gain levels: 1 more at 6th, 2 more at 10th, 1 more at 14th, and the last slot at 17th. So, at 17th, level, sorcerer have access to all eight forms of metamagic at all times.
• All subclasses get some additional spells. Each origin has a list of spells—its origin spells—that you gain at the sorcerer levels noted in the origin description. These spells do not count against your number of sorcerer spells known, and if an origin spell doesn't appear on the sorcerer spell list, the spell is nonetheless a sorcerer spell for you.
• Draconic:
  • Level 1: Command
  • Level 3: Dragon's Breath
  • Level 5: Fly
  • Level 7: Elemental Bane (with poison added as an option)
  • Level 9: Dominate Person
• Wild Magic:
  • Level 1: Chaos Bolt
  • Level 3: Enlarge/Reduce
  • Level 5: Dispel Magic
  • Level 7: Polymorph
  • Level 9: Reincarnate
• Storm:
  • Level 1: Thunderwave
  • Level 3: Shatter
  • Level 5: Call Lightning
  • Level 7: Storm Sphere
  • Level 9: Destructive Wave
• Divine Soul: (Based on alignment, good/neutral/evil)
  • Level 1: (Divine Magic feature)
  • Level 3: Lesser Restoration / Spiritual Weapon / Crown of Madness
  • Level 5: Revivify / Spirit Guardians / Vampiric Touch
  • Level 7: Guardian of Faith / Banishment / Blight
  • Level 9: Dawn / Dispel Evil and Good / Insect Plague
• Shadow:
  • Level 1: Bane
  • Level 3: Darkvision
  • Level 5: Vampiric Touch
  • Level 7: Shadow of Moil
  • Level 9: Negative Energy Flood
• Stone:
  • Level 1: Earth Tremor
  • Level 3: Max's Earthen Grasp
  • Level 5: Erupting Earth
  • Level 7: Stone Shape
  • Level 9: Transmute Rock
• Sea:
  • Level 1: Create or Destroy Water
  • Level 3: Misty Step
  • Level 5: Tidal Wave
  • Level 7: Control Water
  • Level 9: Maelstrom
• Phoenix:
  • Level 1: Burning Hands
  • Level 3: Flaming Sphere
  • Level 5: Revivify
  • Level 7: Fire Shield
  • Level 9: Raise Dead

 

[Todd Roybark]

and 5MWD is actually broken, not just "OP" or whatever).

This is an ancillary issue, so not trying to thread jack, (and constantly quote R.E...damnit man stop raising interesting points! ), I feel the opposite.

The multiple, different “power timers” is actually the worst aspect of 5E, in my opinion.

Now ‘Worst’ in 5e, means inconvenient...as the party now has to negotiate within itself, what rest type to use:
The Bard and Barbarian want to long rest because they are out of spells and rage uses, the Fighter and Monk want a short rest...cause that is all they need, and the Rogues just wants a Druid to cast pre-errata Healing Spirit, because Rogues don’t rest....they just need Red Bull...err Healing Potions.

I hate it when on encounter 2-3 of a scripted adventuring day, dice roll swingy, or somebody goes crazy with the cheesewiz and uses too many spell slots ......
........and now the debate of “ Hut or Suck ( it up) happens”.

4e in it’s Daily/Encounter/ At Will format had the best balance.

At least with the 5MWD, all classes can Nova and shine. Sure Endurance slog setups with no resting is fine once in awhile. I’m tired of the Rogue feeling great on encounter 7 of the day, and the rest of the group is lowkey dissatisfied.

A Sorcerer in tier 1 can suck it up....4 Cantrips is nice. At higher tiers I am not so sure. Converting all of one’s spells into Fireballs or Sickening Radiance , means you are playing the 5e equivalent of an animated 3e Wand.

Sorcerers either appeal to those that feel other spell casting classes do not adequately represent the “I am Magic” theme, or those players whom want the challenge of a class with a handicap, (handicap meant in golf terms, not Able-ist terms).

Personally I favor a radical redesign of the class. Something on the order of 1/2 caster status similar to the Artificer, (including preparing from the entire list of very limited spells), to represent sorcerers being a general magic autodidact.

The Big, Themed 1-9th spells should come from the Subclass, either through Font of Magic or from something like Mystic Arcaneum.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Darkvision is kinda redundant on a Shadow Sorcerer, although I guess they could give it to others.

 

[EpicureanDM]

Darkvision is kinda redundant on a Shadow Sorcerer, although I guess they could give it to others.

Yes, that's the idea. It represents the sorcerer's ability to offer control over shadows to others. You'll note, for example, that Phoenix sorcerers won't be able to use Raise Dead on themselves.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Yes, that's the idea. It represents the sorcerer's ability to offer control over shadows to others. You'll note, for example, that Phoenix sorcerers won't be able to use Raise Dead on themselves.

Yeah, that kinda makes sense. I still wouldn't do it, though, because it risks being mostly or even completely unused. (E.g., in a party with demihumans, or having an outdoor adventure).

EDIT: To elaborate on that, I think this is a different case than subclass bonus spells for other classes. Clerics, for example, don't have "spells known" constraints, so if their bonus spells are hardly ever used, that's fine. But spells known for sorcerers are so precious that the bonus spell should really be a useful one. That's especially true if they are given the ability to cast it by spending sorcery points direction (at a cost of 1/level). That reduced cost is important enough of a class benefit that to have it on a rarely used spell would be a serious weakness, compared to a subclass that had more commonly used spells.

 

[EpicureanDM]

To elaborate on that, I think this is a different case than subclass bonus spells for other classes. Clerics, for example, don't have "spells known" constraints, so if their bonus spells are hardly ever used, that's fine. But spells known for sorcerers are so precious that the bonus spell should really be a useful one. That's especially true if they are given the ability to cast it by spending sorcery points direction (at a cost of 1/level). That reduced cost is important enough of a class benefit that to have it on a rarely used spell would be a serious weakness, compared to a subclass that had more commonly used spells.

None of the people who've played sorcerers in my game using these rules have ever felt like any of their bonus spells were a serious weakness. Even the sea sorcerer who had Create/Destroy Water, a 1st-level spell that's easily outclassed by something like Command, Thunderwave, or Burning Hands, found occasional uses for it that reinforced her class flavor.

Trust me, people who receive the entire house-rule package I describe are usually too happy to quibble about a bonus spell.

 

[Guest 6801328]

None of the people who've played sorcerers in my game using these rules have ever felt like any of their bonus spells were a serious weakness. Even the sea sorcerer who had Create/Destroy Water, a 1st-level spell that's easily outclassed by something like Command, Thunderwave, or Burning Hands, found occasional uses for it that reinforced her class flavor.

Trust me, people who receive the entire house-rule package I describe are usually too happy to quibble about a bonus spell.

Yeah with one big point pool that changes the calculus significantly.

 

[EpicureanDM]

Yeah with one big point pool that changes the calculus significantly.

Don't sleep on the "free hand" material component. Pair it with Subtle Spell and the shenanigans start to pile up fast!