D&D 5E People didn't like the Psionic Talent Die

[Charlaquin]

I mean I only need Star Wars to show that "almost universally" is a bit of a stretch.

I’m not sure the force really falls under what I would typically think of as psychic powers, but I guess I can see what you mean there.

As for the Mind Mage, I can't take seriously the idea that I need to explain what the concept of a master psionicist is? The jedi master, Proffessor X and Jean Grey of the X-Men (hell, only the young mutants in an origin story with psychic powers fit your description, and the Dark Phoenix Saga Jean Grey, and only while the Phoenix Force was controlling her, and even then it wasn't control of her power, but control of her will, that was the problem), Martian Manhunter...I mean...come on. It's hardly uncommon to have someone with psychic powers be masters of their own power.

Control of one’s powers, control of one’s will, tomato, tomahto in my opinion. Point being, discipline and control are an integral part of the narrative of preternatural power of the mind. Jedi included. Certainly I can see the desire for the ability to play a character who has mastered such powers and is able to call upon them reliably. But that seems like something you could work into the psionic die mechanic. Perhaps a mid-high ability that allows the character to use the die without the risk/reward of the size changing. But I don’t suppose it matters, as they’re not moving forward with the mechanic anyway.

And regardless of pop culture, DnD has a long history of psionics (the masters of which have long been called mind mages) who are just as in control as any wizard.

Sure, but like... The wizard already exists. Psychic-themed spells already exist. 5e is already big on reskinning. The mind mage already seems like a perfectly playable concept if psionics are just going to use the existing mechanics anyway.

EDIT: as for why you couldnt just do a psionic master with existing options, the answer is the same as it is for the wild talent. You can, but it won't be as satisfying, and the mechanics are spread out over several classes, and you'll be stuck with class features that don't make sense for the concept. Seems pretty straightforward.

I just don’t see the current path they’re going down leading to a way to play such characters that’s more satisfying than what we have. If it’s just going to be a bunch of subclasses with psychic themes and maybe access to some psychic-flavored spells... We already have that. I mean, I wouldn’t say no to more such subclasses, but if that’s all this 5-year process is going to lead to... It’s been a really long walk for a really short drink of water.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I’m not sure the force really falls under what I would typically think of as psychic powers, but I guess I can see what you mean there.


Control of one’s powers, control of one’s will, tomato, tomahto in my opinion. Point being, discipline and control are an integral part of the narrative of preternatural power of the mind. Jedi included. Certainly I can see the desire for the ability to play a character who has mastered such powers and is able to call upon them reliably. But that seems like something you could work into the psionic die mechanic. Perhaps a mid-high ability that allows the character to use the die without the risk/reward of the size changing. But I don’t suppose it matters, as they’re not moving forward with the mechanic anyway.

Sure, but like... The wizard already exists. Psychic-themed spells already exist. 5e is already big on reskinning. The mind mage already seems like a perfectly playable concept if psionics are just going to use the existing mechanics anyway.


I just don’t see the current path they’re going down leading to a way to play such characters that’s more satisfying than what we have. If it’s just going to be a bunch of subclasses with psychic themes and maybe access to some psychic-flavored spells... We already have that. I mean, I wouldn’t say no to more such subclasses, but if that’s all this 5-year process is going to lead to... It’s been a really long walk for a really short drink of water.

No one is saying they should just use the existing mechanics, though. We are saying they shouldn’t invent new subsystems that all Psionics use just to make Psionics arbitrarily different.

The previous versions of these subclasses had new mechanics. There are new mechanics in nearly every new book for 5e since the core books. People don’t just reject new mechanics. They reject new subsystems that don’t feel like part of the same game as the rest of the game, new mechanics that feel tacked on to make something arbitrarily different for difference’s sake, and the like.

 

[Undrave]

No one is saying they should just use the existing mechanics, though. We are saying they shouldn’t invent new subsystems that all Psionics use just to make Psionics arbitrarily different.

The previous versions of these subclasses had new mechanics. There are new mechanics in nearly every new book for 5e since the core books. People don’t just reject new mechanics. They reject new subsystems that don’t feel like part of the same game as the rest of the game, new mechanics that feel tacked on to make something arbitrarily different for difference’s sake, and the like.

Personally, I don't classify new spells as 'New Mechanics', and the same for most subclass features that boil down to "you can do X, Y ammount of time before rest Z."

 

[Charlaquin]

No one is saying they should just use the existing mechanics, though. We are saying they shouldn’t invent new subsystems that all Psionics use just to make Psionics arbitrarily different.

The previous versions of these subclasses had new mechanics. There are new mechanics in nearly every new book for 5e since the core books. People don’t just reject new mechanics. They reject new subsystems that don’t feel like part of the same game as the rest of the game, new mechanics that feel tacked on to make something arbitrarily different for difference’s sake, and the like.

YMMV, but part of what I liked about the psionic die was that, unlike the Mystic’s Disciplines, it did feel like part of the same game as everything else. “Roll an extra die and add the result to something” is like the defining mechanic of 5e, and the psionic die was an interesting new use of the design space surrounding that baseline mechanic.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I just don’t see the current path they’re going down leading to a way to play such characters that’s more satisfying than what we have. If it’s just going to be a bunch of subclasses with psychic themes and maybe access to some psychic-flavored spells... We already have that. I mean, I wouldn’t say no to more such subclasses, but if that’s all this 5-year process is going to lead to... It’s been a really long walk for a really short drink of water

I don’t understand why the amount of time spent in dev matters?
They’re gonna put out whatever works for a reasonable percentage of people. If that ends up being more like the previous round of psionic options and less like this one, okay? If it ends up being something like aN Int based warlock with sorcery points and broadly defined at-will abilities, dope!

If they find that the best path is just new subclasses with spells and abilities that do what psions should do, cool.

They shouldn’t insist on it being more out there just because of the amount of time since first iteration.

 

[Minigiant]

It felt very much like what comes to my mind when I think of a character with psychic powers. Psychic potential is almost universally depicted as unpredictable and difficult to control, and often the psychic character can push their powers beyond their normal limit, but only when the plot needs them to, and there’s always some kind of backslash. The die captured that feeling very well in my opinion. If that’s what a “wild talent build” is, I’d be fine with that being what Psionics are. What even is a “mind mage” anyway and what prevents players from making one with the currently available options?

I always saw psionics in a a "sharp incline, flatline then modest incline" on the power to control graph.

When you first get psionics, it's wild and dangerous. Your telekinesis throws stuff arund dangerously. You can't turn off your telepathy. You spew mind goo.

Then either you get a master to train you control or you become a hermit until you can learn yourself. You don't get more power, just control. This is where your matial psionic characters jump off. Your psychic warriors/knight, soul knifes, ardents, and battleminds stop here. Here you start working on your body,weapons training, and skills training. There is a mental block you have to work hard to break to go further and you decide not to.

But if you break the seal, the unpredictablility ccomes back and you have to relearn control of that or learn new techniques to control the seal. This is where you get the psions and wilders. Your power and control both go up or you go mad. You have to control the unpredictability. You must. Or you die.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don’t understand why the amount of time spent in dev matters?
They’re gonna put out whatever works for a reasonable percentage of people. If that ends up being more like the previous round of psionic options and less like this one, okay? If it ends up being something like aN Int based warlock with sorcery points and broadly defined at-will abilities, dope!

If they find that the best path is just new subclasses with spells and abilities that do what psions should do, cool.

They shouldn’t insist on it being more out there just because of the amount of time since first iteration.

I mean, I don’t disagree. If the majority of players don’t want psionics to be anything more than a handful of subclasses with some mind-themed spells and one-off abilities, then so be it. But it’s more than a little frustrating that it’s taken us this long to get there. Hell, that’s what psionics looked like in the dndnext playtest, and back then they told us they were gonna hold off on psionics because they wanted to make sure they felt like their own thing. Here we are 5 years later and they’re saying “Turns out, most players really don’t want Psionics to feel like their own thing, and that’s been the consistent feedback since the Next playtest.” It’s kind of infuriating to be told to wait for them to get it just right, only to come back around to the exact same thing 5 years later.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I didn't like the die because there was absolutely nothing about it that in any way evoked D&D psionics. I understand some people are interested in new mechanics for the sake of new mechanics, but if the mechanics don't fit what they are being used for, that doesn't appeal to me. This die made psionics random for no reason other than to implement a new mechanic. If a new mechanic had screamed "I am psionic and I am D&D!" and it had been a good mechanic, then I would have given it a good vote. This mechanic failed, and I honestly thing a lot of people only liked it because it was a new toy to play with (as opposed to, say, the D&D Next playtest sorcerer that a lot of people liked because it was interesting, even if I didn't care for it myself).

 

[Coroc]

UAMystic3 still does it for me, nothing else needed.

 

[Charlaquin]

I didn't like the die because there was absolutely nothing about it that in any way evoked D&D psionics. I understand some people are interested in new mechanics for the sake of new mechanics, but if the mechanics don't fit what they are being used for, that doesn't appeal to me. This die made psionics random for no reason other than to implement a new mechanic. If a new mechanic had screamed "I am psionic and I am D&D!" and it had been a good mechanic, then I would have given it a good vote. This mechanic failed, and I honestly thing a lot of people only liked it because it was a new toy to play with (as opposed to, say, the D&D Next playtest sorcerer that a lot of people liked because it was interesting, even if I didn't care for it myself).

It’s fine if you didn’t like it, but it’s insulting to be told I only liked it because it was new. I’ve already been over why it felt like psychic powers to me, and why it felt like a natural fit in 5e’s mechanical feel. If it didn’t feel that way to you that’s valid but please don’t tell me it didn’t feel that way to me.