D&D 5E People didn't like the Psionic Talent Die

[JiffyPopTart]

You would guess incorrectly, in that case. The 5E PHB has more character possibilities than all of 1E, combined. It's not even close.

I specifically said crunch. I believe everyone has an unlimited amount of possibilities for characters in every edition because of reskinning and non-rules-related aspects to a character, but there are a finite amount of "bits of crunch" that you can use to model your character in the game you are playing. If I had the books available (and not packed away in storage boxes in the 1e case) I would pull them out and count them up and do a comparison.

 

[Mistwell]

The game would be poorer without them.

I think the game would be better if they had gone with a monk that was less fiddly but more mainstream, in mechanics. Because they gave us a fiddly system that is also...really quite weak when compared to the other martial classes. And if they'd been forced to use similar mechanics, they'd have been much more likely to see the weaknesses because it would have been a more apples to apples comparison and been able to fix that. Instead the weaknesses were discussed by more unique mechanics which hid them from a direct comparison and failed to reveal how much less they really did in comparison to others at similar levels.

 

[Mistwell]

I specifically said crunch. I believe everyone has an unlimited amount of possibilities for characters in every edition because of reskinning and non-rules-related aspects to a character, but there are a finite amount of "bits of crunch" that you can use to model your character in the game you are playing. If I had the books available (and not packed away in storage boxes in the 1e case) I would pull them out and count them up and do a comparison.

I agree with Parmandur on this, but I think it would be a worthy experiment to dig those books out and see what you can put together. Maybe we're wrong on this, and it's one of those things I think would be interesting to read about. Maybe compare a fighter, thief, cleric and magic-user/wizard from 1e to 5e?

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

The only objective evidence we do have says the opposite.

Not at all. When Crawford tells us that his audience believes that the psionic die mechanic is too much, all you have to support that those same people would greenlight the warlock today is pure faith. The current player base is clearly not interested in anything that works on a different base or with its own mechanics.

But - and now I must confess that I’m entering a purely speculative territory - I don’t believe that statement describes the player base really. I believe the D&D stronger base is still composed mainly of people excited about a warlock, or even a warlord or psion (even if they cannot agree about how they should work). Xanathar’s strong sales seem to support that belief. By this point, people giving consistent feedback on UA material could be a vocal minority.

I know that I, at least, am usually too busy preparing and running my two weekly games to spend the time on their surveys, unless I really love/hate what they bring. Whatever time I have for that, I prefer to be here on EnWorld or with the Brazilian D&D community on Twitter, even if doesn’t have the same impact.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Just a quick spot check of something I had handy to reference.

Cleric
1ePHB + UA = 0-20-20-20-16-16-12-12-0-0 = 136 spells
5ePHB + XGTE = 9-16-17-21-8-15-10-9-4-4 = 113 spells

Wizard
1ePHB + UA = 66-40-36-32-32-30-30-24-20-16 = 260 spells + 66 other things (not counting these as spells for this comparison)
5ePHB + XGTE = 18-32-37-35-26-33-25-17-16-15 = 254 spells

 

[Parmandur]

Just a quick spot check of something I had handy to reference.

Cleric
1ePHB + UA = 0-20-20-20-16-16-12-12-0-0 = 136 spells
5ePHB + XGTE = 9-16-17-21-8-15-10-9-4-4 = 113 spells

Wizard
1ePHB + UA = 66-40-36-32-32-30-30-24-20-16 = 260 spells + 66 other things (not counting these as spells for this comparison)
5ePHB + XGTE = 18-32-37-35-26-33-25-17-16-15 = 254 spells

Spells aren't that much of a comparison.

 

[Parmandur]

Not at all. When Crawford tells us that his audience believes that the psionic die mechanic is too much, all you have to support that those same people would greenlight the warlock today is pure faith. The current player base is clearly not interested in anything that works on a different base or with its own mechanics.

But - and now I must confess that I’m entering a purely speculative territory - I don’t believe that statement describes the player base really. I believe the D&D stronger base is still composed mainly of people excited about a warlock, or even a warlord or psion (even if they cannot agree about how they should work). Xanathar’s strong sales seem to support that belief. By this point, people giving consistent feedback on UA material could be a vocal minority.

I know that I, at least, am usually too busy preparing and running my two weekly games to spend the time on their surveys, unless I really love/hate what they bring. Whatever time I have for that, I prefer to be here on EnWorld or with the Brazilian D&D community on Twitter, even if doesn’t have the same impact.

You have belief, WotC has knowledge based in data.

Be the change you want to see in the world. Any one person isn't going to change the survey results for thousands upon thousands of responses, but it isn't meaningless.

 

[Mistwell]

Not at all. When Crawford tells us that his audience believes that the psionic die mechanic is too much, all you have to support that those same people would greenlight the warlock today is pure faith.

I have that they greenlit it by 90% earlier, and that more recent testing of subclasses as early as last year was still showing today that people liked it by more than 70%. Now that's not conclusive evidence, but it is more than you have for your "In an alternative world" theory about how it would play out if they were newly introduced today, and it's also objective data as opposed to your entirely subjective one.

The current player base is clearly not interested in anything that works on a different base or with its own mechanics.

Not quite what he said. He's saying "different" and "own mechanics" might be fine provided its easily understood and played as quickly as just sitting down at the table to start playing.

For example, I strongly suspect survey respondents wouldn't have those issues with a mechanic which applied advantage or disadvantage to damage rolls. It would be it's own mechanic and different, but it would be similar enough to existing stuff that people can just sit down at the table and immediately play it because it's so easy to understand. Similarly, "You can permanently give up a 3rd level spell slot to gain a new cantrip" would be new and it's own mechanic, but also likely pass the "I can grok this the moment I sit down to play" criteria.

So it's not just anything which works different or with its own mechanic - it's a question of complexity and ease/speed of use. Which leaves room for something different, it's just more difficult to design that.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Spells aren't that much of a comparison.

Yes, because I should have been able to do a detailed and exhaustive comparison of every bit of crunch in an hour, so I guess my point is invalid.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

Be the change you want to see in the world. Any one person isn't going to change the survey results for thousands upon thousands of responses, but it isn't meaningless.

I consider that battle lost since they dropped the mystic, really. The psionic die was just the moribund having that small health improvement some days/hours before dying. Different from many people here, I love the third-party material I have, intend to purchase more of it, and I'm working on my own as well. I wanted psionic material to be official because I hope for a Dark Sun release at some point, and I don't want to rework everything to be compatible with the psionics system I end up picking from the Guild.

For WotC, I first went from preordering everything to buying when Amazon offers a good deal, and now I'm taking the next step and only getting things if they appear to be better than their current offerings (which are below the standard set by Out of the Abyss, Curse of Strahd, Princes, or even Tales from the Yawning Portal, in my opinion). I miss being on the hype train, though. I love to give WotC my RPG dollars.