Level Up (A5E) [+] What features should a "Advanced 5E" have?

[Haldrik]

@TheSword and @Helldritch,

I support the 70% support model that WotC uses. But that percentage includes my voice and desires. I am often the majority on many D&D 5e designs, and occasionally the minority. That is normal.

The abilities are mechanics that are so central, deep, and fundamental to the gaming system. Everything depends on the abilities. It is a high priority to ensure that the abilities work as well as possible.

I would find it satisfactory to have an improved ability system as a variant option. Unfortunately, the current abilities are so klugy and baked into everything, that a variant seems less practicable. For example, monsters, skills, classes, all organize around the six abilities. Short of making continual recalculations for every effect, or rewriting the rules, it is difficult to imagine how a variant can work even when desirable.

(Possibly, devolve calculations to more specialized mechanics, and then allow players different choices for how to group these specialized mechanics into an ability. For example, instead of a Dexterity bonus, make an initiative bonus, and the player decides if initiative should fall under Dexterity or an other ability such as Perception.)

For this reason, the difficulty of even offering a variant, the D&D tradition suffers edition after edition with substandard ability design.

 

[ThatGuySteve]

Themes
Bring back Themes as a extra choice at character creation. Grant bonuses/special abilities as you level up. Vastly increases the range of archetypes achievable without creating loads of base classes. If you want a warlord mix Tactician with Fighter, Paladin or Ranger. Mix Tactician with Rogue to get your burglar who plans the perfect heist. Eg

• Tactician - Help as a bonus action, use action to grant allies a move/attack as a reaction
• Leader - bard style inspiration, grant temporary hit point Inspiring Leader style
• Bounty Hunter - bonuses tracking/attacking marked quarry
• Ritualist - learn and cast ritual spells

Rituals
Separate Rituals from regular spells.
Make rituals skill based, use passive skill on lower level rituals (Unseen Servant - Arcana check determines how many servants you summon. Water Breathing - Nature check determines how many creatures you can affect).
Make more utility spells into rituals (Secret Chest) and more high level rituals.

Race/Ancestry
Ditch ability score bonuses and make special abilities highlight the differences. Eg half-orcs Relentless Endurance and Savage Attacks tell you they are strong and tough. Skill proficiency/feat tell you that humans are adaptable. Wood Elves Fleet of Foot and Mask of the Wild/Keen Senses tell you they are nimble and in tune with their surroundings.

You can tell a lot more about an ancestry by giving them a unique special ability than just a generic stat bump. Stops players feeling like they need to pick the "right" race to get a decent score in their main stat.

 

[TheSword]

@TheSword and @Helldritch,

I support the 70% support model that WotC uses. But that percentage includes my voice and desires. I am often the majority on many D&D 5e designs, and occasionally the minority. That is normal.

The abilities are mechanics that are so central, deep, and fundamental to the gaming system. Everything depends on the abilities. It is a high priority to ensure that the abilities work as well as possible.

I would find it satisfactory to have an improved ability system as a variant option. Unfortunately, the current abilities are so klugy and baked into everything, that a variant seems less practicable. For example, monsters, skills, classes, all organize around the six abilities. Short of making continual recalculations for every effect, or rewriting the rules, it is difficult to imagine how a variant can work even when desirable.

(Possibly, devolve calculations to more specialized mechanics, and then allow players different choices for how to group these specialized mechanics into an ability. For example, instead of a Dexterity bonus, make an initiative bonus, and the player decides if initiative should fall under Dexterity or an other ability such as Perception.)

For this reason, the difficulty of even offering a variant, the D&D tradition suffers edition after edition with substandard ability design.

Okay, well you’ve just essentially agreed with our point that they are central to the game. I’m not sure you’ve given evidence to support your assertion that they are substandard. Though as they’re never gonna change I don’t really see the point of starting another debate in a [+] thread. Maybe start a new one if you want to open a new discussion.

 

[Helldritch]

With his explanations I see a bit better where @Haldrik is going towards to. It is not a bad idea but I still think that we should aim for a full add on that is retrofittable. A kind of basket of options that can be all implemented at once, one at a time or thematically taken to suit the tastes of each individual DMs (not an easy task, if you want my opinion). But it can be done. For some, it will not go far enough, for others, it might be too much. But as long as all in the AD&D5ed is retrofittable and still feel and looks like D&D, we will have the majority with us.

 

[Morrus]

@TheSword and @Helldritch,

I support the 70% support model that WotC uses. But that percentage includes my voice and desires. I am often the majority on many D&D 5e designs, and occasionally the minority. That is normal.

The abilities are mechanics that are so central, deep, and fundamental to the gaming system. Everything depends on the abilities. It is a high priority to ensure that the abilities work as well as possible.

I would find it satisfactory to have an improved ability system as a variant option. Unfortunately, the current abilities are so klugy and baked into everything, that a variant seems less practicable. For example, monsters, skills, classes, all organize around the six abilities. Short of making continual recalculations for every effect, or rewriting the rules, it is difficult to imagine how a variant can work even when desirable.

(Possibly, devolve calculations to more specialized mechanics, and then allow players different choices for how to group these specialized mechanics into an ability. For example, instead of a Dexterity bonus, make an initiative bonus, and the player decides if initiative should fall under Dexterity or an other ability such as Perception.)

For this reason, the difficulty of even offering a variant, the D&D tradition suffers edition after edition with substandard ability design.

We're not going to be changing the ability scores. This is still the same game. I've written other games, though, with different ability scores, if you want to check those out!

 

[RangerWickett]

Themes
Bring back Themes as a extra choice at character creation. Grant bonuses/special abilities as you level up. Vastly increases the range of archetypes achievable without creating loads of base classes. If you want a warlord mix Tactician with Fighter, Paladin or Ranger. Mix Tactician with Rogue to get your burglar who plans the perfect heist. Eg

We're putting Themes into our upcoming ZEITGEIST setting book, so it could provide an opportunity for people to ponder what level of power is appropriate. We basically give everyone the equivalent of a feat at 1st level, which give you more options in an adventure, and in some cases provide a bit of extra power, but doesn't really make you able to fight higher-level threats.

 

[Haldrik]

I've written other games, though, with different ability scores, if you want to check those out!

Also, I am eagerly awaiting when Cortex finally does come out. Its fluidity of abilities intrigues me.

As far as I can tell, each genre tends to bake in its own choice of abilities. But at least the system is built to allow abilities to function well.



With regard to D&D, the abilities because of their mechanical centrality, are one of the few areas that are difficult to update and improve.

 

[Haldrik]

Okay, well you’ve just essentially agreed with our point that they are central to the game. I’m not sure you’ve given evidence to support your assertion that they are substandard. Though as they’re never gonna change I don’t really see the point of starting another debate in a [+] thread. Maybe start a new one if you want to open a new discussion.

The abilities are, technically-speaking, central to the mechanics.

At the same time, when an antiquated structure becomes less useful to the system that evolves beyond it, that initial structure becomes problematic.

It is like trying to build a skyscraper on top of the foundation for a log cabin. Such a skyscraper inevitably falls apart.

Elegant, high performance machinery requires every part to work efficiently − especially the core that the rest of the engine depends on.

 

[Helldritch]

For you the abilities are broken. For me, they're working as intended. When it is not broken, don't fix it. It is the skill system that is lacking and it can be adjusted quite easily.

 

[Haldrik]

For you the abilities are broken. For me, they're working as intended. When it is not broken, don't fix it. It is the skill system that is lacking and it can be adjusted quite easily.

Indeed the abilities are broken. That hawks are wiser than humans. That people who know how to jump dont know how to land. And so on. At a certain point, it becomes less useful for coherent mechanics and for coherent narratives.

Also, the imbalance that makes Dexterity a strictly better choice and Intelligence a worse choice, interferes with mechanics and narratives.

For a storytelling game to have central abilities that work poorly is unfortunate.