D&D 5E Spell Versatility is GONE. Rejoice!

[Sword of Spirit]

That is not how I remember it happening. I’m pretty sure Wizards had neovancian casting from packet 1. The sorcerer didn’t show up in the public playtest at all until pretty late in the game, same packet that the Warlock first showed up in IIRC.

I didn’t remember it either, but after @MoonSong posted it it started ringing a bell. I think wizards had classic Vancian to start, compared to the cleric’s neovancian.

 

[Nikosandros]

I didn’t remember it either, but after @MoonSong posted it it started ringing a bell. I think wizards had classic Vancian to start, compared to the cleric’s neovancian.

Yes, I just checked and you are correct.

 

[John R Davis]

Apparently, people get offended

Welcome to the world

 

[FrogReaver]

Nope. I'm a D&D nerd. I didn't know that being a sports fan was required.

To be serious, it is very different, as this was a variant rule and D&D is not a competition against the rest of the community, and there's absolutely no reward for taking away someone's fun this way.

That's a rather slippery slope you are advocating for.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ok, that’s helpful.

In the old days wizards could prep for anything if they had a day to prep.

If wizards are spontaneous casters and sorcerers are still spontaneous full casters - what, exactly, is the design difference between them other than fluff? As the number of spells known by sorcerers increases, is that design difference still in place, particularly when availability of scrolls and spell books as loot is not guaranteed?

What changes would you suggest that retain some form of distinctive differences between the classes? While also recalling that there are many other classes in the game? And that we are talking about two of the most powerful classes in the game, to boot.

Primarily Fluff, Metamagic, ritual casting and number of spells known.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Primarily Fluff, Metamagic, ritual casting and number of spells known.

Giving +Proficiency to number of sorcery points would help.

I've also supported a more limited version of Spell Versatility, such as having it be something you have to invest in before you can do it. E.g.:
"Starting at 4th level, each time you take a long rest when you have at least one sorcery point remaining, you can bank one point into a Versatility Pool, up to a maximum of your Sorcerer level. You may spend points from this pool when you finish a long rest to change one of your spells known equal to twice the level of the new spell or the old spell, whichever is greater. All points in your Versatility Pool are lost when you gain a new level." Much more limited than just once a day, and changing powerful spells is a serious effort that requires a large investment--something you can't simply DO on a regular basis, and in fact you're very unlikely to ever change more than one or two 7th level spells ever, as that would require two weeks of long rests.

Alternatively, I would have liked to keep SV the way it was, but offer the ability for Wizards to build up (semi-)passive spell research that would let them permanently learn a new spell after JUST spending downtime (no gold, just downtime), in a specifically "your random personal research has finally resulted in a breakthrough, pick the spell you want" kind of way. Thus, the Wizard really DOES fulfill the fantasy of actually spending lots of time on personal research which...uh...is kind of not present in the Wizard we have now. The current Wizard just copies spells from other people or spontaneously generates spells with no time actually spent studying. Wizards would get a small, nice thing that is super flavorful and class-fantasy furthering, while Sorcerers would suck less.

As it is, we have Sorcerers who are more (as others have said) like mutants stuck with potentially crap powers, and Wizards that are a lot more like virtuoso composers suddenly belting out inspired pieces (new spells on level up) rather than meticulous researchers slowly building a body of work.

 

[Asisreo]

The ability not to be mind controlled and taken out of the fight when the other caster might have been is also important. But we never talk about the classes that get wisdom saves until someone brings it up as a counter to the discussion always focusing on Sorcerer Con saves.

Every single monster from the monster manual can force a con save on a spellcaster. From commoners, to Ancient Dragons, to Archmages. As long as a spellcaster has cast one of their most powerful ongoing spells (concentration) and has taken damage, they must save for it.

Wisdom saves are much rarer on monsters. Even with monsters that have it, it usually just hits them with the Frightened condition.

I do take other saves into consideration, too. Had I been defending the bard, I would definitely bring up their dexterity saves, because it allows them to dodge significant damage more reliably. But its not about the bard, its about the sorcerer.

And how many times do you need to be invisible for more than an hour, and you know that when you cast the spell? What good is casting it in combat and hiding? Especially on a class that likely does not have the greatest stealth.

If you don't know how long you'll need to be invisible, that just emphasizes using extended more. Better to be safe than sorry and take the 2 hours of invisibility than the one. Hiding is still useful. Not all monsters have great Passive Perception. At a +2 dex against PP of 11, you're still likely to succeed. Doesn't hurt to give it the ol' college try, especially since you'll still be invisible after you try.

Does it happen so often that the wizard needs a second hour of invisibility (and not three, four or more) that is becomes a common problem with the spell?

If your spellcaster needs even a minute more than 1 hour of invisibility (or any effect) its always more efficient to extend it. If there needs to be 4 hours of invisibility, it would cost a wizard 4 2nd-level spell slots. It would cost a sorcerer 2 2nd-level slots and 2 sorcery points. They'll always be more efficient.

The abilities a sorcerer imparts onto their characters aren't necessary flashy, though most non-spellcasting abilities are. Something's usefulness isn't really based on whether you feel it would be helpful at the time, because you usually aren't thinking about what you don't have.

A cleric's channel divinity isn't often praised as a game-changer, yet when a cleric uses them, they actually can change the game meaningfully. The same could be said for a Druid's Wildshape or a Paladin's aura. I'm not ever thinking how useful extra HP could have been or a Paladin's aura may be perfect for our situation when they aren't there. But they are still extremely useful features.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Alternatively, I would have liked to keep SV the way it was, but offer the ability for Wizards to build up (semi-)passive spell research that would let them permanently learn a new spell after JUST spending downtime (no gold, just downtime), in a specifically "your random personal research has finally resulted in a breakthrough, pick the spell you want" kind of way. Thus, the Wizard really DOES fulfill the fantasy of actually spending lots of time on personal research which...uh...is kind of not present in the Wizard we have now. The current Wizard just copies spells from other people or spontaneously generates spells with no time actually spent studying. Wizards would get a small, nice thing that is super flavorful and class-fantasy furthering, while Sorcerers would suck less.

This is the best idea I’ve heard for an ability to help wizards keep their theme with sorcerers having spell versatility. I’m still not sure I’d be okay with spell versatility as it was originally presented, but this is exactly the sort of creative compromising that could get me to accepting a modified version of it.

 

[Charlaquin]

I imagine "boons" are one of those necessities in a warlock class, so they were trying to incorporate them.

Effectively, they were spell slots but could also have access to features that weren't necessarily spells. Perhaps being able to summon a familiar that could be an Imp, Pixie, or Psuedodragon. Or being able to have a weapon attach onto you for a set amount of time and have it summonable with proficiency in it. Or hex someone and give them a boost to damage and disadvantage on ability checks.

Some options were probably more popular than others so they either had them as a boon that's always on or a spell you can use your slots for.

The probably kept spell slots for simplicity and ease of access. This way, they don't have to have a whole other section on "Pact Magic Magic Packets" which are actually just how they'd work now.

No, no, Boons worked exactly like warlock spell slots do now. They were just called Boons instead of being called spell slots. Which made sense, because they were the only class with spell slots that worked that way. It was less confusing than them having “spell slots” that don’t work like anyone else’s spell slots, and that you sometimes spend on things that aren’t spells (like the Invocations that let you do something once per day by spending a Warlock spell slot.)

 

[Charlaquin]

Yes, I just checked and you are correct.

Huh. I’ll have to check my files when I get home.