D&D 5E Spell Versatility is GONE. Rejoice!

[Chaosmancer]

Every single monster from the monster manual can force a con save on a spellcaster. From commoners, to Ancient Dragons, to Archmages. As long as a spellcaster has cast one of their most powerful ongoing spells (concentration) and has taken damage, they must save for it.

Wisdom saves are much rarer on monsters. Even with monsters that have it, it usually just hits them with the Frightened condition.

I do take other saves into consideration, too. Had I been defending the bard, I would definitely bring up their dexterity saves, because it allows them to dodge significant damage more reliably. But its not about the bard, its about the sorcerer.

Again, I never see "has X type of save" brought up except as a defense for the sorcerer. If people ask "what is so great about bards" the phrase "They have Dex saves to avoid damage" never comes up.

If you don't know how long you'll need to be invisible, that just emphasizes using extended more. Better to be safe than sorry and take the 2 hours of invisibility than the one. Hiding is still useful. Not all monsters have great Passive Perception. At a +2 dex against PP of 11, you're still likely to succeed. Doesn't hurt to give it the ol' college try, especially since you'll still be invisible after you try.

Sorcerery points are a limited and precious resource, using them in a "might as well, might need it" manner is just wasteful.

And on hiding, you seem to have missed the point. You cast the spell and hide during combat. Now what? You aren't contributing to the combat anymore, because the moment you do your invisibility drops. Are you simply hiding until your party loses the fight? If you just needed to get out of the fight, you are better off simply running away.

Also, if you want to consider a passive perception of 11, being invisible would grant you advantage on stealth checks, giving you a passive 15 stealth, and that is even assuming that during combat you would use a passive perception at all.

So, still, all of this seems very niche and very much just using the ability because you can, not because it is actively helpful in more than a handful of situations.

If your spellcaster needs even a minute more than 1 hour of invisibility (or any effect) its always more efficient to extend it. If there needs to be 4 hours of invisibility, it would cost a wizard 4 2nd-level spell slots. It would cost a sorcerer 2 2nd-level slots and 2 sorcery points. They'll always be more efficient.

The abilities a sorcerer imparts onto their characters aren't necessary flashy, though most non-spellcasting abilities are. Something's usefulness isn't really based on whether you feel it would be helpful at the time, because you usually aren't thinking about what you don't have.

A cleric's channel divinity isn't often praised as a game-changer, yet when a cleric uses them, they actually can change the game meaningfully. The same could be said for a Druid's Wildshape or a Paladin's aura. I'm not ever thinking how useful extra HP could have been or a Paladin's aura may be perfect for our situation when they aren't there. But they are still extremely useful features.

You are missing the point entirely.

Paladin auras, Wildshape and Channel Divinty are active, new effects in the game. As a druid player, I can definetly say that there have been times when using my wildshape has changed the course of the game, because I knew "hey, I can solve this problem with wildshape."

Metamagic doesn't do that.

Continuing with invisibility, let use some set framing.

{X} is all the times invisibility is useful.
{Y} is all the times invisibility is not useful no matter how long it lasts

{X'1} is all the times invisibility would be useful, if invisibility lasted an additional hour.

By logical neccessity, {X'1} must be the smallest of those three sets, because it is between the times that the spell is useful and the times when it is never useful. We can argue all day about the exact size of this set, but it is smaller than the other two.

So a wizard taking Invisibility gets {X} the larger share of all the times casting invisibility is useful to the party. A sorcerer also gets {X}, making them equal, but then adds {X'1} if they take extended spell. Extended spell has not reduced {Y}. It has not given us a situation where Invisibility would not have helped, and made invisibility help.


And think for a moment about the examples you gave me. Wildshape, Paladin Aura's, Channel Divinity. Are those the only things those classes can do?

No

Druids also have ritual casting, a unique spell list, and weapon and armor proficiencies and ways to leverage those proficiencies with decent Hp and spell augments.

Clerics get ritual casting, a unique spell list, weapon and armor proficiencies, Divine Intervention, decent hp and every subclass gets a level 8 damage boost

Paladins get superb hp, all armor, all weapons, non-spell healing, divine sense, divine smite, channel divinities, fighting styles, a unique spell list, extra attack and divine health.

And I'm not talking about specific subclasses, I'm talking about the base class. Each of those abilities you listed that give entirely new actions, buffs or things you can accomplish are part of a set of abilities.

Sorcerers don't get armor. Don't get most weapons. Don't get good health. Don't get a unique spell list. They have con saves and metamagic. And all metamagic does is allow niche uses of spells that other people can cast anyways.

 

[MoonSong]

Huh. I’ll have to check my files when I get home.

Sorcerer and warlock appeared in august 2012 package. Neovancian first happened in the October package, then it came the December package which gave it to wizards.

The August package was about the fourth package to be put out, so it isn't true that sorcerer and warlock happened late into the game. They were among the first additional classes to be put out. When that package came out there was discussion about the sorcerer, but the damnation didn't come from anything inherently from the sorcerer, instead it came out of wizard players in tweeter demanding spell points too, sorcerer was well received, but the need to fine tune the wizard to accept different spellcasting methods meant there was no time or love to dedicate to further develop sorcerers.

Then sorcerers became an afterthought in the designers minds when they decided to have a single Mage class, that obviously was 90% wizard anyway. When that wasn't well received, they cobbled together sorcerer and warlock at the eleventh hour and away from the public eye.

 

[Charlaquin]

Sorcerer and warlock appeared in august 2012 package. Neovancian first happened in the October package, then it came the December package which gave it to wizards.

The August package was about the fourth package to be put out, so it isn't true that sorcerer and warlock happened late into the game. They were among the first additional classes to be put out. When that package came out there was discussion about the sorcerer, but the damnation didn't come from anything inherently from the sorcerer, instead it came out of wizard players in tweeter demanding spell points too, sorcerer was well received, but the need to fine tune the wizard to accept different spellcasting methods meant there was no time or love to dedicate to further develop sorcerers.

Huh. Wow, I remembered very wrong then.

 

[Asisreo]

Again, I never see "has X type of save" brought up except as a defense for the sorcerer. If people ask "what is so great about bards" the phrase "They have Dex saves to avoid damage" never comes up.

It comes up with me. In fact, I was quite surprised bards got dex saves and was worried it would be a bit overtuned. Its not, but its still a big point for the bard.

Sorcerery points are a limited and precious resource, using them in a "might as well, might need it" manner is just wasteful.

There is nothing more wasteful than not using sorcery points. If you take a long rest and you have sorcery points leftover, those sorcery points do absolutely nothing.

If you have metamagics that cost 1 sp instead of those that can take 2-9 in one casting, they begin to feel less constrained. The ability to transmute slots to points and vice-versa makes it so you won't be running out as soon as you think.

And on hiding, you seem to have missed the point. You cast the spell and hide during combat. Now what? You aren't contributing to the combat anymore, because the moment you do your invisibility drops.

You just can't cast a spell or make an attack. You can still take the Help action, Search for something, or even use an object like a potion or any other magic item that uses an action to do something special.

Paladin auras, Wildshape and Channel Divinty are active, new effects in the game. As a druid player, I can definetly say that there have been times when using my wildshape has changed the course of the game, because I knew "hey, I can solve this problem with wildshape."

Metamagic doesn't do that.

Metamagic does give an avenue in helping the party in a unique way. The simple Subtle Phantasmal Force can give an NPC a sudden "divine revelation" or a Subtle Major Image can stir a crowd. A wizard would be caught casting the spell and intelligent NPC's won't fall for it.

Sorcerers don't get armor. Don't get most weapons. Don't get good health. Don't get a unique spell list. They have con saves and metamagic. And all metamagic does is allow niche uses of spells that other people can cast anyways.

And flexible casting, and the most cantrips natively, and a diverse spell list.

The ability to cast fireball 4 times at level 5 is something absolutely no spellcaster can do except for the sorcerer. And he would still have spell slots left over for metamagic and general spellcasting.

I don't see how having the most cantrips also isn't seen as something very strong. Cantrips are faster and more versatile than rituals and they can be spammed at-will. Having the ability to take Minor Illusion, Prestidigation, Mage Hand and still have room for Firebolt is incredible at levels 1-4, especially since spellcasters must rely on their at-will abilities more due to their spell slot shortage.

 

[Undrave]

Man, I can't believe I've been staring at this 'rejoice' thread for almost a week and this never occured to me.. clearsthroat

...

IWAE!!!


...

That is all.

 

[MikalC]

Why? Spell versatility was a good thing

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Honestly, I feel like if this is the best you can say about the sorcerer, then it is clear that the sorcerer is failing to be unique. "I have con saves" shouldn't even be in the discussion. We never really talk about saving throws for any other class, but Sorcerer having Con Saves is seen as one of their defining features. Wizard's get Wisdom saves to protect them from mind-control, fear, and paralyzation magic.

And Metamagic, like doctorbadwolf says, really does not allow the Sorcerer to do the one thing that everyone says it should do. It does not allow you to cast the spells in new and unique ways. A Fireball is a fireball is a fireball, whether I use Distant, Careful, Subtle, Quickened, or Empowered. It is still a fireball and still fulfills the role of a fireball. A sorcerer cannot use that fireball to do something that is not fireball.

To be fair, the new meta magic in tashas does let them change the damage type, which makes fireball an explosion of wife or lightning or acid or whatever.

But it’s a small step, still.

 

[DND_Reborn]

...which makes fireball an explosion of wife...

THAT is the most deadly fireball damage type!

 

[Chaosmancer]

It comes up with me. In fact, I was quite surprised bards got dex saves and was worried it would be a bit overtuned. Its not, but its still a big point for the bard.

That makes the first time ever I've seen.

There is nothing more wasteful than not using sorcery points. If you take a long rest and you have sorcery points leftover, those sorcery points do absolutely nothing.

If you have metamagics that cost 1 sp instead of those that can take 2-9 in one casting, they begin to feel less constrained. The ability to transmute slots to points and vice-versa makes it so you won't be running out as soon as you think.

So you run out of spell slots instead.

And, if you use up all your points and slots before the day is over? Then you have nothing.

You just can't cast a spell or make an attack. You can still take the Help action, Search for something, or even use an object like a potion or any other magic item that uses an action to do something special.

Search is only useful in.... niche situations.

Using potions means that you used a spell slot to buy time to heal, again, you also could have run away. So it only helps if you have no where to move to where you won't be easily targeted, and you can't fall prone. Because falling prone gives the same disadvantage as being invisible. Only it is free, not a spell slot.

Andy magic item that activates a magical effect is considered the same as casting a spell, so they would break invisibility. Plus it requires having whichever specific magic item you want.

Which leaves the Help action. And if you are using the help action with the need of a 2nd level spell slot... why not just cast a spell that may directly give a similiar or greater benefit?

I know I'm being nit-picky, but this is the point. You are defending the sorcerer with a niche set of maybes. Everything they have is reliant on "well, if this is the situation" in a way that few other classes have to deal with for their core abilities.

Metamagic does give an avenue in helping the party in a unique way. The simple Subtle Phantasmal Force can give an NPC a sudden "divine revelation" or a Subtle Major Image can stir a crowd. A wizard would be caught casting the spell and intelligent NPC's won't fall for it.

Sure, Subtle is useful in specific circumstances. Phantasmal Force is a range of 60 ft. If a wizard is hidden, will they been seen? Maybe. But maybe tables have rules for attempting to hide spellcasting. Meaning you aren't doing anything unique, just something that is a die roll for others.

Also, you again set up a niche situation. You need

1) Subtle Spell
2) Phantasmal Force
3) An NPC who the party can manipulate with a "divine revelation"
4) A successful skill check (because just casting the spell isn't an instant-win button)

What do you need for a Paladin to use their aura?

1) Stand within 10ft of a paladin

And flexible casting, and the most cantrips natively, and a diverse spell list.

The ability to cast fireball 4 times at level 5 is something absolutely no spellcaster can do except for the sorcerer. And he would still have spell slots left over for metamagic and general spellcasting.

I don't see how having the most cantrips also isn't seen as something very strong. Cantrips are faster and more versatile than rituals and they can be spammed at-will. Having the ability to take Minor Illusion, Prestidigation, Mage Hand and still have room for Firebolt is incredible at levels 1-4, especially since spellcasters must rely on their at-will abilities more due to their spell slot shortage.

Sure, a few extra cantrips is nice, but again, you are trying to sell a 1 through 20 class, and "I get two more cantrips" is weak.

And you can talk about 4 fireballs at level five, but what does that mean?

Two spell slots of 3rd level.
Every Sorcerery point you start the day with (3rd)
Two 2nd level spell slots and a 1st level spell slot (4th)

Leaving you with 0 sorcery points, 1 second spell, and 3 first. So, to get two more sorcery points for most metamagic you need to keep consuming spell slots.

Color me unimpressed.

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To be fair, the new meta magic in tashas does let them change the damage type, which makes fireball an explosion of wife or lightning or acid or whatever.

But it’s a small step, still.

Yeah, they finally gave us something we've needed since the beginning... right in time for a wizard with a superior version.

Small steps indeed.

 

[Maxperson]

THAT is the most deadly fireball damage type!

I've been burned that way before.