D&D 5E Spell Versatility is GONE. Rejoice!

[Helldritch]

Thank god WotC saw the light and removed that awful rule. That said...

I must admit that we have something similar to that rule at our table. But it is restricted to once per downtime. Which makes it enough to alleviate the consequences of a bad choice but not often enough to push the wizard aside.

On an other note.
Yes, during playtests the warlocks and sorcerers were like, a distant concern and should have had a lot more love in playtestings. A few ideas should have made it into the edition but we got what we got. I still do not have TCoE but my players already bought the enhanced edition as a "gift" for me... so i'll see what is in it for sorcerers and warlocks. If their ideas are better than mine/ours then I'll adopt them, but from what I have seen so far...

We already did a lot for the sorcerer class. They start with a random meta and their charisma in sorcery point. These two simple changes made them finally played at my table and they are now seriously considered when a player wants a caster. I guess, a small change can add a lot...

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Using potions means that you used a spell slot to buy time to heal, again, you also could have run away. So it only helps if you have no where to move to where you won't be easily targeted, and you can't fall prone. Because falling prone gives the same disadvantage as being invisible. Only it is free, not a spell slot.

Found this "falling prone" analysis interesting. Of course, falling prone is only equivalent to invisibility in imparting disadvantage to ranged attacks. If an enemy can move up to a character, they'll get advantage on a melee attack against the prone character whereas they'd still be at disadvantage on the melee attack against an invisible character.

 

[Maxperson]

Found this "falling prone" analysis interesting. Of course, falling prone is only equivalent to invisibility in imparting disadvantage to ranged attacks. If an enemy can move up to a character, they'll get advantage on a melee attack against the prone character whereas they'd still be at disadvantage on the melee attack against an invisible character.

And unlike invisibility, has a movement cost associated with it when you need to stand up, which could kill the PC who is in a tough fight.

 

[Asisreo]

So you run out of spell slots instead.

And, if you use up all your points and slots before the day is over? Then you have nothing.

Have you considered the real spellslots are the friends you made along the way?

Well, resource management is a part of the game. You need to pace yourself like a marathon. You want to put 100% of your energy across the marathon, but you don't want to do it before the first half.

You may not know how far your spell slots need to go, but that means metamagic is even more useful. Maximizing the efficiency of each individual slot helps you from burning through them too quickly.

Sure, Subtle is useful in specific circumstances. Phantasmal Force is a range of 60 ft. If a wizard is hidden, will they been seen? Maybe. But maybe tables have rules for attempting to hide spellcasting. Meaning you aren't doing anything unique, just something that is a die roll for others.

Isn't that the same for most non-combat spells?

Either way, a DM that includes a houserule that makes a specific character option less potent needs to be careful. If suddenly the DM decides that dual-wielding gives 2 damage roll bonuses, the fighter that took dual-wielding may feel somewhat cheated.

Also, you again set up a niche situation. You need

1) Subtle Spell
2) Phantasmal Force
3) An NPC who the party can manipulate with a "divine revelation"
4) A successful skill check (because just casting the spell isn't an instant-win button)

For #1 & 2, its not niche since there's an assumption that the sorcerer knew about this combo and purposefully built themselves with it in mind. When they take subtle, they'd be on the lookout for spells that would be bad if associated with them.

I mean, most NPC's should believe in gods in the default setting. But if—for some reason—they don't, the spell isn't just about divine revelations. They can have a loved one appear, or a boss, or a fearsome enemy, or anything that the sorcerer knows will definitely grab that creature's attention. It's a very versatile spell.

And for the last point, no skill check is needed. It just rationalizes what it sees as real. Its balanced because they must make a save, but if they fail the intelligence save they perceive it as wholly real and will even take damage from it.

Sure, a few extra cantrips is nice, but again, you are trying to sell a 1 through 20 class, and "I get two more cantrips" is weak.

Are the critiques not from the level 1-9 range? From level 10+, the sorcerer has more than enough spell slots and sorcery points to cast their better spells quite alot with powerful metamagic and nice subclass features.

We're talking Heightened Hold Monster or Quickened Sunbeam for 12d8 damage on a single turn. Subtle Dominate Person or Subtle Wish. These are incredibly useful abilities at higher levels and with the 1-3 sorcery points a pop, its pretty cheap.

And you can talk about 4 fireballs at level five, but what does that mean?

Two spell slots of 3rd level.
Every Sorcerery point you start the day with (3rd)
Two 2nd level spell slots and a 1st level spell slot (4th)

Leaving you with 0 sorcery points, 1 second spell, and 3 first. So, to get two more sorcery points for most metamagic you need to keep consuming spell slots.

Color me unimpressed.

Its certainly not as efficient in terms of point preservation, but you do so because you feel you needed 4 fireballs. If not, it makes no sense going through the trouble. But you'll be able to tell when you need it.

 

[Maxperson]

Metamagic does give an avenue in helping the party in a unique way. The simple Subtle Phantasmal Force can give an NPC a sudden "divine revelation" or a Subtle Major Image can stir a crowd. A wizard would be caught casting the spell and intelligent NPC's won't fall for it.
And flexible casting, and the most cantrips natively, and a diverse spell list.

You get to make a creature, object or other visible phenomenon. You don't get to give divine revelations.

You can make a burning bush, but you can't make someone think that it's their god sending a sign. What they think of it is up to their own personal rationalization.

 

[Asisreo]

You get to make a creature, object or other visible phenomenon. You don't get to give divine revelations.

You can make a burning bush, but you can't make someone think that it's their god sending a sign. What they think of it is up to their own personal rationalization.

You can always create the image of their god or some other symbolism their god would use.

The phantasm includes sound, so if the phantasm can speak, the target will hear it.

Seeing a crow say "I am the Queen of Winter and Darkness" and having the crow grow and bring an imposing message will likely have anyone's attention. If not complete belief, there'd be concerns even from the more intelligent enemies if they failed the initial save.

 

[Helldritch]

The more an illusion is acting as the target would expect it to act, the more the target will be prone to believe it. I would certainly allow an illusion to be believed as a divine omen if the player bring it as such in a believable way.

An evil cultist is praying in front of an altar and an invisible hidden sorcerer cast an illusion of the cultist's god and deliver a message to the cultist to do such and such. I believe that I would even give disadvantage on the save simply because a cultist would be more than happy to receive a "vision" from his god. Now the message itself should be in accordance to the beliefs of the cultist of course. It is always circumstantial with illusions.

 

[MoonSong]

I've included cantrips in my analysis since they are still spells and are still pretty useful, especially during these earlier stages of gameplay.

The bard gets 4 spells known and 2 cantrips. A total of 6 spells.

A sorcerer gets 2 spells and 4 cantrips. A total of 6 spells.

This pattern continues until level 10 when they get a new metamagic while the bard gets an extra spell known and magical secret.

Back to this. A cantrip is useful and cool. But extra cantrips are very easy to get. There are many ways to get them. They just aren't as valuable as a spell known. You only have so many actions to use them, and no cantrip will ever reach the utility of a spell known. They are at best counted separately from the rest of the spells.

Have you considered the real spellslots are the friends you made along the way?

Well, resource management is a part of the game. You need to pace yourself like a marathon. You want to put 100% of your energy across the marathon, but you don't want to do it before the first half.

You may not know how far your spell slots need to go, but that means metamagic is even more useful. Maximizing the efficiency of each individual slot helps you from burning through them too quickly.

Metamagic is the bones of the class, it is meant to compensate you just not having the spells to contribute. Yet, you don't have enough points to use it often enough to meaningfully contribute. You need to sacrifice slots, you either do that, or find yourself unable to use your magic to help.

So cast less spells overall, or find yourself superfluous to the party. Many times having the sorcery points and the slots isn't even enough to be anything but useless anyway, because no metamagic will actually make a spell viable that wasn't already viable to contribute.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That makes the first time ever I've seen.



So you run out of spell slots instead.

And, if you use up all your points and slots before the day is over? Then you have nothing.



Search is only useful in.... niche situations.

Using potions means that you used a spell slot to buy time to heal, again, you also could have run away. So it only helps if you have no where to move to where you won't be easily targeted, and you can't fall prone. Because falling prone gives the same disadvantage as being invisible. Only it is free, not a spell slot.

Andy magic item that activates a magical effect is considered the same as casting a spell, so they would break invisibility. Plus it requires having whichever specific magic item you want.

Which leaves the Help action. And if you are using the help action with the need of a 2nd level spell slot... why not just cast a spell that may directly give a similiar or greater benefit?

I know I'm being nit-picky, but this is the point. You are defending the sorcerer with a niche set of maybes. Everything they have is reliant on "well, if this is the situation" in a way that few other classes have to deal with for their core abilities.



Sure, Subtle is useful in specific circumstances. Phantasmal Force is a range of 60 ft. If a wizard is hidden, will they been seen? Maybe. But maybe tables have rules for attempting to hide spellcasting. Meaning you aren't doing anything unique, just something that is a die roll for others.

Also, you again set up a niche situation. You need

1) Subtle Spell
2) Phantasmal Force
3) An NPC who the party can manipulate with a "divine revelation"
4) A successful skill check (because just casting the spell isn't an instant-win button)

What do you need for a Paladin to use their aura?

1) Stand within 10ft of a paladin



Sure, a few extra cantrips is nice, but again, you are trying to sell a 1 through 20 class, and "I get two more cantrips" is weak.

And you can talk about 4 fireballs at level five, but what does that mean?

Two spell slots of 3rd level.
Every Sorcerery point you start the day with (3rd)
Two 2nd level spell slots and a 1st level spell slot (4th)

Leaving you with 0 sorcery points, 1 second spell, and 3 first. So, to get two more sorcery points for most metamagic you need to keep consuming spell slots.

Color me unimpressed.

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Yeah, they finally gave us something we've needed since the beginning... right in time for a wizard with a superior version.

Small steps indeed.

You know I just realized how I’d fix the sorcerer for a player at my table.

They get one meta magic that is a signature meta magic. They can use it prof bonus times a day without spending points.

They gain a second signature MM at level 11.

Lastly, they gain prof bonus extra SP per day, although I’d also consider a randomized trickle recharge of some kind.

 

[Maxperson]

You can always create the image of their god or some other symbolism their god would use.

I doubt many, if any really know what the god looks like. If you know what god they follow AND have a good memory of the statues at the temple of that god(which in my game would take a good skill roll), then you could make an image of the god appearing. But gods appearing are so insanely rare that it would probably alert any intelligent NPC that something was afoot

The phantasm includes sound, so if the phantasm can speak, the target will hear it.

Seeing a crow say "I am the Queen of Winter and Darkness" and having the crow grow and bring an imposing message will likely have anyone's attention. If not complete belief, there'd be concerns even from the more intelligent enemies if they failed the initial save.

You're better off coming up with something believable. If there's no reason to suspect, they won't use investigation to defeat it.