D&D 5E Spell Versatility is GONE. Rejoice!

[MoonSong]

Subtle Modify Memory, Subtle Geas. It can also be used for subtle spells you didn't bother picking up on your own class list like subtle dominate monster, subtle glibness, or subtle Mass Suggestion.

You know that only a couple of these are actually in the sorcerer list?

Situations aren't niche. Situations are situations. Abilities are niche based on the number of probable situations that they are applicable. However, the ability to subtle Phantasmal Force can be applicable in every social interaction in the game, which are common enough not to be niche at all.

Yet, Phantasmal Force is a spell few sorcerers can afford to even have in the first place. There is barely enough space for spells that directly help with survivability

This is why you must pace yourself alongside your other players. Chances are, when your paladin, bard, and fighter needs to long rest and you do too, you've properly paced yourself. Try not to be the only person with alot of spell slots left but try not to be the first one with non left.

It is hard. Every spell you cast that isn't modified by metamagic or is not something a wizard could cast marks you as wizard minus. I try not to make the comparison, but others on the table will very likely be quick to remind you. On the other hand, cast nothing and you become irrelevant in the given situation. You'll run out of resources very quickly on any given day.

Its unreasonable to list every combination of metamagic and spells. I'm giving you an idea based on a single example. Besides, the single example is more likely in a real campaign than any weird mix of metamagics like extended Blink or quicken disguise self.

Any metamagic combo in isolation is unreasonable. Simply because for most of your career, you only have two metamagics, and every spell has to work with either. Even Twin is useless if all you have is a bunch of AoE Spells. Quicken is useless for utility spells, Heighten does nothing for spells that are pure attacks and so on.

 

[Maxperson]

Arguing about the specific example just proves my point; the example itself is immaterial. Illusion magic puts the DM in a position of having to shoot down what a player feels IS a clever idea much too often, and having to shoot down player ideas too much generally leads to a bad play experience.

This is not an illusion specific issue. Players come up with many ideas and not all of them work. Why should illusionists get a special pass that others don't get? Their ideas aren't inherently better because illusionist.

 

[TwoSix]

This is not an illusion specific issue. Players come up with many ideas and not all of them work. Why should illusionists get a special pass that others don't get? Their ideas aren't inherently better because illusionist.

I don’t think they should, but they’re pretty ineffective if they don’t, because their whole schtick is based on getting the DM to agree that the idea is clever.

That’s my whole issue, I don’t like illusion magic because getting the DM and player to agree on interpretations of the illusion is their core game play loop, and that just creates tension.

 

[Hohige]

You know that only a couple of these are actually in the sorcerer list?


Yet, Phantasmal Force is a spell few sorcerers can afford to even have in the first place. There is barely enough space for spells that directly help with survivability

It is hard. Every spell you cast that isn't modified by metamagic or is not something a wizard could cast marks you as wizard minus. I try not to make the comparison, but others on the table will very likely be quick to remind you. On the other hand, cast nothing and you become irrelevant in the given situation. You'll run out of resources very quickly on any given day.

Any metamagic combo in isolation is unreasonable. Simply because for most of your career, you only have two metamagics, and every spell has to work with either. Even Twin is useless if all you have is a bunch of AoE Spells. Quicken is useless for utility spells, Heighten does nothing for spells that are pure attacks and so on.

With metamagic adept, Its 4 choices and extra 2 sp.

 

[Maxperson]

I don’t think they should, but they’re pretty ineffective if they don’t, because their whole schtick is based on getting the DM to agree that the idea is clever.

That’s my whole issue, I don’t like illusion magic because getting the DM and player to agree on interpretations of the illusion is their core game play loop, and that just creates tension.

That's a False Dichotomy. They do not become ineffective if they don't get a pass. They can and do come up with as many clever ideas as anyone else. The difference is that illusion gives them a wider range to be clever in, granting them the tools that they need to make their ideas work.

Above when you first responded to me, it was because I said how hard it would be to make a replica of a god. It's always going to be much harder to replicate a specific individual, especially to someone who knows what that individual looks like, than a general member of that species.

If you want to make an image of the ancient red dragon Fryerburnsem to talk to someone who has seen him, you need to know that one horn is broken off, he has a scar on his belly and right side, and two on his tail, and that his scales on his legs have dulled due to age. That means you really need to have seen him before and perhaps make a roll go get it right. However, if you just want to make an image of a big, honking red dragon and not a specific individual, it will be pretty easy.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Any metamagic combo in isolation is unreasonable. Simply because for most of your career, you only have two metamagics, and every spell has to work with either. Even Twin is useless if all you have is a bunch of AoE Spells. Quicken is useless for utility spells, Heighten does nothing for spells that are pure attacks and so on.

I don't think the sorcerers are worth fixing, but if I were to try my first step would probably be to just give them all the metamagics. It is supposed to be their unique thing and it costs limited resources to use, so let's at least make sure that they have plenty of opportunities to utilise it if they want to.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

That's a rather slippery slope you are advocating for.

What is it that I'm advocating for, from your point of view?

 

[Swarmkeeper]

This is not an illusion specific issue. Players come up with many ideas and not all of them work. Why should illusionists get a special pass that others don't get? Their ideas aren't inherently better because illusionist.

I don’t think they should, but they’re pretty ineffective if they don’t, because their whole schtick is based on getting the DM to agree that the idea is clever.

That’s my whole issue, I don’t like illusion magic because getting the DM and player to agree on interpretations of the illusion is their core game play loop, and that just creates tension.

What am I missing in this Illusion debate? There's a very specific and seemingly fair mechanic regarding the effectiveness of Illusion magic that is in the spell description of many of the Illusion spells:

If a creature uses its action to examine the sound or image, the creature can determine that it is an illusion with a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC.

and also often:

Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it.

Until you get to Mirage Arcane, that is, which is quite powerful Illusion magic that isn't discerned by investigation or physical interaction.

What, exactly, does the DM have to get "on board" with here to make Illusion magic "work" at the table?

 

[Asisreo]

You know that only a couple of these are actually in the sorcerer list?

I was referring to Subtle Wish in particular. Not just the spells on their spell list.

Yet, Phantasmal Force is a spell few sorcerers can afford to even have in the first place. There is barely enough space for spells that directly help with survivability

Survivability is important, but most sorcerers have ways to tilt their survivability further with their subclass. I only have my PHB on me, but draconic has a basic permanent mage armor and +lvl HP to increase both AC and HP of sorcs passively. Wild Magic has at least 1 advantage to saving throws, which is the earliest time you can get such a feature without v. Human feats.

Shield is really the most important survivability spell, maybe take mirror image too if you're paranoid but most sorcerers are more durable than their wizard counterparts, save maybe war and adjuration wizards.

It is hard. Every spell you cast that isn't modified by metamagic or is not something a wizard could cast marks you as wizard minus. I try not to make the comparison, but others on the table will very likely be quick to remind you. On the other hand, cast nothing and you become irrelevant in the given situation. You'll run out of resources very quickly on any given day.

I mean, if you make the attack option as a fighter at levels 1-4, rude people could argue you're essentially barbarian-lite. Sounds like the group would need to have a discussion about expectations at that point. Because if they wanted a wizard in the party so much, they should have been one.

But rude remarks from hypothetical players aside, its not about the spells you cast but how you cast them. I mean, you should be using at least some metamagic and using your fonts. If you're not, you're 100% correct. Its like being a Ranger who never casts spells, you may as well have been a fighter or rogue. Or like being a Barbarian that never rages, you may as well have been a fighter or paladin.

If a player never uses the features that make them distinct from another class, that player will feel like that class but a little less.

Any metamagic combo in isolation is unreasonable. Simply because for most of your career, you only have two metamagics, and every spell has to work with either. Even Twin is useless if all you have is a bunch of AoE Spells. Quicken is useless for utility spells, Heighten does nothing for spells that are pure attacks and so on.

Its your choice of spells from beginning to end. Its also your choice or metamagic. You can always choose the combinations that work for your options. It wouldn't make any sense for a sorcerer to take empowered metamagic when they have no plans on taking any AoE spells. Likewise, why take Twinned when you'll only cast AoE spells or spells that already target multiple creatures?

Sorcerers have their pros and their cons, just as all classes. They're fairly complex and can be quite overwhelming, especially amongst spellcasters. However, a player that can work with the sorcerer class rather than against it will be able to see their strengths as what they are.

If versatility is required for you to feel powerful, then sorcerer isn't the spellcaster for you. However, if you enjoy resource management and optimizing play, sorcerers are a fun class. They're harder to build, no doubt, but its rewarding if you can do so well.

 

[BacchusNL]

I don't think the sorcerers are worth fixing, but if I were to try my first step would probably be to just give them all the metamagics. It is supposed to be their unique thing and it costs limited resources to use, so let's at least make sure that they have plenty of opportunities to utilise it if they want to.

Or atleast create some base-line metamagic effects that every sorc gets. It's one of the things that got scrapped from the class variant UA I don't understand at all. Now a sorc's only option still, when they get their iconic ability at level 2, is to turn those sorc points into a lvl 1 spell slot. Fun...