D&D 5E Tasha's Mind Sliver and Shadow Sorcerer. The most efficient spellcaster?

[NotAYakk]

Please a caster spending resources to cast a AOE spell for situational aoe damage, a fireball deals 28 damage...

Polymorph is resources spent.

T-rex doesn't do single target damage. 2 target damage on fireball is 28*2 = 56, save for half on each. The TRex cannot attack the same target with both attacks, and they do 33 and 20 on average each.

A level 8 rogue with booming blade non magical rapier and a reliable reaction attack deals 2d8+4d6+4 27 damage per attack, twice per round. Often on one target.

A PAM GWM fighter with a flaming glaive does 2d10+1d4+6d6+42 = 71 damage. They do have to burn superiority dice on precision attack to make their accuracy decent; only 41 without using GWM.

A sharpshooter with +1 bolts and a +2 hand crossbow does 3d6+51 (61.5) at +8 to hit.

Yes, polymorph is strong. No, polymorph is not usually huge damage increase. I mean, it is great on unoptimized characters.

But I find mainly its offensive boost is a horizontal thing, and a bucket of HP to keep someone in the fight. Those HP aren't as good as real HP, because they are backed up by poor AC, but they do soak damage.

Polymorph also peaks at level 7/8.

Although, one of these days I want to see what a hasted, tenser's transformation'd great ape fights like.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Polymorph is resources spent.

T-rex doesn't do single target damage. 2 target damage on fireball is 28*2 = 56, save for half on each. The TRex cannot attack the same target with both attacks, and they do 33 and 20 on average each.

A level 8 rogue with booming blade non magical rapier and a reliable reaction attack deals 2d8+4d6+4 27 damage per attack, twice per round. Often on one target.

A PAM GWM fighter with a flaming glaive does 2d10+1d4+6d6+42 = 71 damage. They do have to burn superiority dice on precision attack to make their accuracy decent; only 41 without using GWM.

A sharpshooter with +1 bolts and a +2 hand crossbow does 3d6+51 (61.5) at +8 to hit.

Yes, polymorph is strong. No, polymorph is not usually huge damage increase. I mean, it is great on unoptimized characters.

But I find mainly its offensive boost is a horizontal thing, and a bucket of HP to keep someone in the fight. Those HP aren't as good as real HP, because they are backed up by poor AC, but they do soak damage.

Polymorph also peaks at level 7/8.

Although, one of these days I want to see what a hasted, tenser's transformation'd great ape fights like.

I think it’s pretty disingenuous to call out a situational disclaimer for the T. rex not being able to attack the same target while then listing every example after that is even more situational. And also neglecting the grapple effect

And unlike white room analysis (which is flawed because you’re not applying apples to apples), every time I’ve seen it in actual play, it’s usually the biggest thing to completely turn an encounter around.

 

[Mistwell]

Please a caster spending resources to cast a AOE spell for situational aoe damage, a fireball deals 28 damage... A paladin spending resources to smite. A caster level 8 doesnt have 140 HP.
While Polymorphed is for 600 rounds without spending resources and It gains 140 Temporary HP.
It deals average 50 damage with +10 to hit and The target is automatically restrained (DC 17 to scape)
Magical weapons for PC is DM Fiat.

Instead T rex, Giant Ape is also strong, has ranged attack and It has 8 int.
When the creature is defeated, you have a PC with Full HP and resources.
Twin Polymorph + The hound is a game changer.

A fireball deals 28 damage to EACH TARGET. A Paladin smiting is what Paladins do, and you just disabled that by turning them into a beast. A caster normally doesn't wade into combat so what are they using 128 hit points for?

Polymorph isn't for 600 rounds realistically. That's silly. Your AC is so low, and you must be in melee range to attack with no special abilities to leave melee range, so you're getting hit hard and often. If you're NOT getting hit you probably are screwing up anyway. So no, Polymorph is lasting you one or two encounters generally speaking.

Magic weapons for PCs isn't DM Fiat (that's not what the word "fiat" means). It's DM discretion, but at 8th level it's not at all weird to be talking about a party having magic weapons by that level and 100% of WOTC published adventures would have them available by that level. There is a reason so many foes at that level have resistance to non-magic weapons.

This isn't even worth debating. Everyone knows Polymorph. If it's good for your game in that way you claim to want to use it, great. But I doubt it, and I don't think you've played with it that way either since I think you're white rooming it right now. Poorly I might add.

I like a lot of your optimization posts, but this twin polymorph idea is lame. And the hound doesn't help with that concept. There is no optimization between the two. I think you have had better ideas in the past for twinning spells than polymorph with this build and should try harder.

 

[Sacrosanct]

A fireball deals 28 damage to EACH TARGET. A Paladin smiting is what Paladins do, and you just disabled that by turning them into a beast. A caster normally doesn't wade into combat so what are they using 128 hit points for?

Polymorph isn't for 600 rounds realistically. That's silly. Your AC is so low, and you must be in melee range to attack with no special abilities to leave melee range, so you're getting hit hard and often. If you're NOT getting hit you probably are screwing up anyway. So no, Polymorph is lasting you one or two encounters generally speaking.

Magic weapons for PCs isn't DM Fiat (that's not what the word "fiat" means). It's DM discretion, but at 8th level it's not at all weird to be talking about a party having magic weapons by that level and 100% of WOTC published adventures would have them available by that level. There is a reason so many foes at that level have resistance to non-magic weapons.

This isn't even worth debating. Everyone knows Polymorph. If it's good for your game in that way you claim to want to use it, great. But I doubt it, and I don't think you've played with it that way either since I think you're white rooming it right now. Poorly I might add.

I like a lot of your optimization posts, but this twin polymorph idea is lame. And the hound doesn't help with that concept. There is no optimization between the two. I think you have had better ideas in the past for twinning spells than polymorph with this build and should try harder.

Once again, you’re equating a one round thing to a multiple round thing. The T. rex is doing that damage every round at the cost of zero additional resources after the initial round. This has been pointed out and you keep ignoring it.

You don’t think it’s good, fine. But don’t expect people to agree with you, especially when you are unable to provide the math to back it up.

 

[Mistwell]

Every round doing that damage? Nope. Try again. Where is the math that an 8th level PC does an average of 53 damage per round, every round. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it. And that's not even factoring in the other benefits as mentioned above.

Your T-Rex isn't doing that damage every round either, since you just calculated the damage if they hit and not the odds of hitting or the odds of damage resistance to non-magical weapon attacks or the odds they won't be able to hit at all due to flying or range or their inability to attac the same target with both attacks or their frequent drawing of opportunity attacks from moving so often between attacks or any of the normal stuff that goes into combat. And yeah, 8th level spellcasters have a lot of spells at those levels.

 

[Mistwell]

Once again, you’re equating a one round thing to a multiple round thing. The T. rex is doing that damage every round at the cost of zero additional resources after the initial round. This has been pointed out and you keep ignoring it.

You don’t think it’s good, fine. But don’t expect people to agree with you, especially when you are unable to provide the math to back it up.

I am equating "well rested PC" vs "banged up PC" which was my argument. Polymorph is great when a PC is banged up. It's bad when they're not. You're taking the position that you should cast it when the PC is fresh. So deal with the consequence of that - they likely have their spell slots and other resources. I am not ignoring your argument, you just don't want to actually address what happens in real games.

And I KNOW people agree with me because it's not some new spell and Polymorph has not made it into a single optimization guide in THE WAY YOU'RE SUGGESTING in all these years. Nobody says cast it on fresh PCs! That's a newbie mistake.

 

[Hohige]

Polymorph is resources spent.

T-rex doesn't do single target damage. 2 target damage on fireball is 28*2 = 56, save for half on each. The TRex cannot attack the same target with both attacks, and they do 33 and 20 on average each.

A level 8 rogue with booming blade non magical rapier and a reliable reaction attack deals 2d8+4d6+4 27 damage per attack, twice per round. Often on one target.

A PAM GWM fighter with a flaming glaive does 2d10+1d4+6d6+42 = 71 damage. They do have to burn superiority dice on precision attack to make their accuracy decent; only 41 without using GWM.

A sharpshooter with +1 bolts and a +2 hand crossbow does 3d6+51 (61.5) at +8 to hit.

Yes, polymorph is strong. No, polymorph is not usually huge damage increase. I mean, it is great on unoptimized characters.

But I find mainly its offensive boost is a horizontal thing, and a bucket of HP to keep someone in the fight. Those HP aren't as good as real HP, because they are backed up by poor AC, but they do soak damage.

Polymorph also peaks at level 7/8.

Although, one of these days I want to see what a hasted, tenser's transformation'd great ape fights like.

I strongly disagree.
Its a lot of mistakes and situational.

Rogue)
"Reliable Reaction" (I never Saw It) and always sneaky?

The Polymorph deals +10, avg 32 damage and automatically restrained and grappled... Every attack against The target has advantage and The target attacks has disadvantage.
The target needs use his action DC 17 to try scape.
Its insanely better than rogue attack.

Fighter) GWM and Sharpshooter requires expending your superior die to be good, its pretty limited
I Will obviously ignore your magical weapons.
Its 55 damage spending all your superior die for 1 turn....
+8 average to hit with preciso attack vs +10 T rex
After spending, you have only +4 to hit.

I prefer The T rex attack and restrained effect.
By far stronger and reliable.


Offensively The T rex is The clear Winner.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Your T-Rex isn't doing that damage every round either, since you just calculated the damage if they hit and not the odds of hitting or the odds of damage resistance to non-magical weapon attacks or the odds they won't be able to hit at all due to flying or range or their inability to attac the same target with both attacks or their frequent drawing of opportunity attacks from moving so often between attacks or any of the normal stuff that goes into combat. And yeah, 8th level spellcasters have a lot of spells at those levels.

So that’s a “no” then, you can’t back up your claims with math then. Noted.

Also, if you’re going to assume not every attack hits, then to be fair you have to apply the same to your examples, and to factor in made saving throws vs your fireball. And fire resistance (which many creatures have). You’re also flat out wrong that 8th level casters have “a lot” of level 3 or higher spells. I suggest you opening the PHB. Then apply the same standards to the examples.

 

[Mistwell]

So that’s a “no” then, you can’t back up your claims with math then. Noted.

Also, if you’re going to assume not every attack hits, then to be fair you have to apply the same to your examples, and to factor in made saving throws vs your fireball. And fire resistance (which many creatures have). You’re also flat out wrong that 8th level casters have “a lot” of level 3 or higher spells. I suggest you opening the PHB. Then apply the same standards to the examples.

You're being weirdly aggressive and rude Sacrosanct. You having a bad week or something? This isn't your norm.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I am equating "well rested PC" vs "banged up PC" which was my argument. Polymorph is great when a PC is banged up. It's bad when they're not. You're taking the position that you should cast it when the PC is fresh. So deal with the consequence of that - they likely have their spell slots and other resources. I am not ignoring your argument, you just don't want to actually address what happens in real games.

And I KNOW people agree with me because it's not some new spell and Polymorph has not made it into a single optimization guide in THE WAY YOU'RE SUGGESTING in all these years. Nobody says cast it on fresh PCs! That's a newbie mistake.

WE are saying that, so wrong assumption again. And has been shown, it’s not a newbie mistake (thanks for the passive aggressive attack there btw) as it’s been showed how effective it is. You’re making a claim and can’t back it up with the math. That’s been noted