D&D 5E Tasha's Mind Sliver and Shadow Sorcerer. The most efficient spellcaster?

[Helldritch]

One thing I would like you all to remember is that though you keep your personality by being polymorphed, you also inherit all stats of the creature. You may retain friend of foe notions but tactics and understanding speech is not part of the spell.

Gartakor, the now T-Rex, will not attack Ismalda the sorceress, but tactics and speech are not in his bag of competence any longer. Gartakor the T-Rex will fight one target at a time, headless of positioning and personal safety, might even get in the middle of foes thus preventing AoE spells and effect. Even the mighty Giant Ape is in this category even more so. If wounded badly, our mighty Giant Ape will be prone to act like any ape will do when wounded and near death: It will flee. I would personally allow a wisdom or intelligence check to stay in combat if the tide is obviously in the favor of the character's side but if the save is failed, Gartakor the mighty Giant Ape will flee for its life. He is a Giant Ape after all.

It is this part of the spell that a lot of people often forget. You take on the stats of the creature you are polymorphed into. You keep your personality so you do not attack your friends but that is about it. Do not expect any animal to linger there to get killed unless trained for that or magically bound to do it...

Some might call this DM's Fiat. But my T-Rex, when badly wounded would try to flee. The same with my giant ape. Why would a polymorphed character supposed to take on the characteristic of the beast would not do the same? The personality thing does not mean that the intelligence and wisdom of the character are still there. It just mean that you will not attack your friends. It is, after all, only a 4th level spell...

 

[Mistwell]

The automatic grappling and restrained is alone hard to compete...its insanely good.

It's not automatic. You have to hit first. And once you do, yes your medium or smaller target is grappled and restrained but you also are now having an even harder time attacking twice in a round since you now must only use your bite on that target. And, again, you have a TWO INTELLIGENCE. Any DM who let's you use the same tactics and strategies you used before should be rethinking that - it's your ability to reason.

As for it being "insanely good" it would have been better to use a lower spell slot on Hypnotic Pattern instead, which is far far better than making one target restrained.

 

[Helldritch]

Ahem...
Do not underplay the potential of the Giant Apes or the T-Rexes. These are very strong options but remember that if the stat is there, the character is, for all intent and purpose, the creature. If the creature is known to use some tactics, it will. The giant ape might chew a few times on the grappled target, but if an other opponent starts to attack the Giant Ape, the Ape will throw the grappled one very far and attack (and grapples) the new target and start over again. This is what an animal would do, ignore lesser threat in favor of immediate ones. Having low intel means that you are easily distracted. It might be why my players do not often use intel of wisdom as dump stats...

 

[Umbran]

SO you didn't watch the video it looks like. OK, you keep arguing in bad faith.

It doesn't sound like you want to have a civil discussion though. So...I guess we're done for now. Again, hope things get better for you. And that is not an ad hominem. It's not an attack at all. It's genuine.

Mod Note:

It technically isn't ad hominem, but it certainly is an attack. So, you better turn down the self-righteousness about seven notches, or you can walk it off in some other thread in which you can treat people with respect. Got it? If not, take it to PM.

Anyone else want to act like a jerk? Making mods deal with you on holidays is a great way to get a vacation from the site.

 

[Guest User]

Obviously you need to fight more battles in the most mysterious of all campaign settings, Theorycraftia, where every fight takes place in a large featureless space.

To be fair, Theorycraftia is a large enough place, that it also encompasses campaigns were every fight takes place in 5' wide corridors with 10' tall ceilings.

At some point, turning A PC, a familiar, a summoned creature, a controlled undead zombie, or something else into a scary beast is going to be appropriate.

Rolling up to a negotiation with a T-Rex and a Giant Ape, could engender Advantage on Intimidation checks.

Some might call this DM's Fiat. But my T-Rex, when badly wounded would try to flee

You can end concentration at any time (no action required). PHB 203.

So while I agree, it is not unreasonable for a DM to ask a player to Roleplay the animal they have been transfigured into...as soon as the DM makes a demand like:
"Marc Bolan, your T-Rex form is so badly wounded you flee".

The caster of the Polymorph spell can immediately stop concentrating on the spell and Marc Bolan returns to being an axman and singer.

 

[Helldritch]

You can end concentration at any time (no action required). PHB 203.

So while I agree, it is not unreasonable for a DM to ask a player to Roleplay the animal they have been transfigured into...as soon as the DM makes a demand like:
"Marc Bolan, your T-Rex form is so badly wounded you flee".

The caster of the Polymorph spell can immediately stop concentrating on the spell and Marc Bolan returns to being an axman and singer.

I fully agree with you. But in our particular case, if you cease to concentrate on the spell, the second T-rex would also disappear. Depending on the level of the adventurers it might be as soon as round two for one of the T-rexes... this means sorcery points and a 4th level spell lost. For 8th level adventurers, this might be a bit much.

While I do not and will not actively counter that play style, it should be worth noting that the more intelligent foes will know about such use of the polymorph spell and will actively try to either force the hand of the caster by concentrating their attacks on him (on the off chance that concentration is lost) or barring that, will use dispel magic and similar tactics. And if these are not available, they will probably concentrate their attacks on one of the T-rexes as downing one foe is always better than splitting your attacks between two or more foes.

In Avernus, you have devils and demons for foes. Any 10 intel outsiders will know. These are immortal beings after all...

 

[Hohige]

It's not automatic. You have to hit first. And once you do, yes your medium or smaller target is grappled and restrained but you also are now having an even harder time attacking twice in a round since you now must only use your bite on that target. And, again, you have a TWO INTELLIGENCE. Any DM who let's you use the same tactics and strategies you used before should be rethinking that - it's your ability to reason.

As for it being "insanely good" it would have been better to use a lower spell slot on Hypnotic Pattern instead, which is far far better than making one target restrained.

...
Its +10 to hit and automatically restrained and grappled. ALL your party has advantage against that creature and The restrained creature has disadvantage.
Its 32 damage.
Two T-Rexes doing It is scary.
The Hound has pack tatics, deals average 10 damage and can knock prone the target (DC 13) and apply disadvantage against Shadow Sorcerer's spells.
The Sorcerer can cast Tidal Wave (enemy has disadvantage) for still more damage and knock prone the target.
Poor target.

The Hound + Careful Hypnotic Pattern/Fear is also a strong option, but Twinned Polymorph + The Hound is really scary.
The Shadow Sorcerer can choose the best tatic for every situation.

 

[Hohige]

Dunno about anyone else, but my PC has fought in plenty of places that simply don't have room, or ceiling space, to fit one t-rex or giant ape, let alone two.

A perfect place for The Hound of Ill omem + Careful Fear/Hypnotic Pattern.
The Shadow Sorcerer is insanely efficient.

 

[Iry]

but remember that if the stat is there, the character is, for all intent and purpose, the creature. If the creature is known to use some tactics, it will. The giant ape might chew a few times on the grappled target, but if an other opponent starts to attack the Giant Ape, the Ape will throw the grappled one very far and attack (and grapples) the new target and start over again. This is what an animal would do, ignore lesser threat in favor of immediate ones. Having low intel means that you are easily distracted. It might be why my players do not often use intel of wisdom as dump stats...

So while I agree, it is not unreasonable for a DM to ask a player to Roleplay the animal they have been transfigured into...as soon as the DM makes a demand like:
"Marc Bolan, your T-Rex form is so badly wounded you flee".

Well, there's no reason you would have the instinctive or socialized behavior. You could certainly feel fear, rage, or sadness... but you're not going to react like a real animal because you've never been the real animal. The low intelligence would be a big hinderance coming up with new ideas or anything but the easiest solution to problems, but you're essentially yourself in a different body. A very stupid self.

 

[Hohige]

Well, there's no reason you would have the instinctive or socialized behavior. You could certainly feel fear, rage, or sadness... but you're not going to react like a real animal because you've never been the real animal. The low intelligence would be a big hinderance coming up with new ideas or anything but the easiest solution to problems, but you're essentially yourself in a different body. A very stupid self.

I couldnt agree more.
A Giant Ape has 7 INT.
Not totally stupid self.