Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Again, you also didn't watch the video? OK then.
D&D 5E Tasha's Mind Sliver and Shadow Sorcerer. The most efficient spellcaster?
Benjamin Olson
Hero
A white room battlefield strewn with blood today.
I'm sure there are players that are amenable to spending a fair number of combats as a menagerie of critters. But they are not generally the type of people who have carefully crafted and optimized character builds (and when they are those people they are already playing a Moon Druid), as any optimized character is going to be mostly better than a comparable CR beast, and certainly more versatile, and this is when they are at a level where there is a suitable CR beast to make full use of the level. Even in a scenario where the critter is objectively better most people have shown up to play a particular character in whom they are invested, not whatever Mr. Cool Sorcerer wants them to be to prove how overwhelmingly powerful he can be when he novas his resources. And, as a practical matter the polymorph friendly players have to be players who do have sufficient system mastery to play whatever statblock they are handed on the fly, so that rules out a lot of the people who don't really care one way or another.
Anyone can appreciate it as a novelty, and once they've used up their own resources in HP, abilities, spells, etc. getting handed a fresh stat block starts looking pretty great. Also cool when you've grown bored with how your character fights or when your normal tactics have been frustrated by the circumstances. So if I'm a Rogue and there is a consistant source of disadvantage blocking any possibility of sneak attack then by all means turn me into something else. If I'm a non-Martial Bard whose out of both spell slots and inspiration with my only remaining utility being to Viciously Mock the enemy then by all means change me (after I've gotten a good insult in). And if I'm almost dead as anything then sure, I'd rather be a fully alive giant ape than making death saving throws. But I think double T-Rextasy working out both mechanically and for table dynamics is pretty situational. I also suspect the party that starts every battle double beasting it is going to start running into fewer encounters where that is viable real quick unless they have a DM fully committed to following something prewritten. I also suspect the sort of Sorcerer who quickens every attack spell so he can debuff with a cantrip first, and throws metamagic dogs at enemies all day long, which is what this thread started out about, is usually not going to have the resources left for twin polymorphing by time other people are depleted enough to want it.
I'm sure there are players that are amenable to spending a fair number of combats as a menagerie of critters. But they are not generally the type of people who have carefully crafted and optimized character builds (and when they are those people they are already playing a Moon Druid), as any optimized character is going to be mostly better than a comparable CR beast, and certainly more versatile, and this is when they are at a level where there is a suitable CR beast to make full use of the level. Even in a scenario where the critter is objectively better most people have shown up to play a particular character in whom they are invested, not whatever Mr. Cool Sorcerer wants them to be to prove how overwhelmingly powerful he can be when he novas his resources. And, as a practical matter the polymorph friendly players have to be players who do have sufficient system mastery to play whatever statblock they are handed on the fly, so that rules out a lot of the people who don't really care one way or another.
Anyone can appreciate it as a novelty, and once they've used up their own resources in HP, abilities, spells, etc. getting handed a fresh stat block starts looking pretty great. Also cool when you've grown bored with how your character fights or when your normal tactics have been frustrated by the circumstances. So if I'm a Rogue and there is a consistant source of disadvantage blocking any possibility of sneak attack then by all means turn me into something else. If I'm a non-Martial Bard whose out of both spell slots and inspiration with my only remaining utility being to Viciously Mock the enemy then by all means change me (after I've gotten a good insult in). And if I'm almost dead as anything then sure, I'd rather be a fully alive giant ape than making death saving throws. But I think double T-Rextasy working out both mechanically and for table dynamics is pretty situational. I also suspect the party that starts every battle double beasting it is going to start running into fewer encounters where that is viable real quick unless they have a DM fully committed to following something prewritten. I also suspect the sort of Sorcerer who quickens every attack spell so he can debuff with a cantrip first, and throws metamagic dogs at enemies all day long, which is what this thread started out about, is usually not going to have the resources left for twin polymorphing by time other people are depleted enough to want it.
humble minion
Legend
Dunno about anyone else, but my PC has fought in plenty of places that simply don't have room, or ceiling space, to fit one t-rex or giant ape, let alone two.
Sacrosanct
Legend
Well, I’ll give you points for doubling down in the irony dept. do you mean that video that has the ranger doing 26 damage until level 11? In what way is that better than a potential output of 53 damage plus grapple? And how does that video explain your incorrect assumptions as pointed out above?
the only one arguing in bad faith here is you. You made claims, couldn’t back it up with math while following the game rules, accusing others of being bad faith for not watching an hour long video that doesn’t prove what you think it does, are applying double standards to the comparisons, and have resorted to ad hominem attacks at least twice (calling anyone supporting our argument as newbies and directly attacking me personally later)
Sacrosanct
Legend
No one has argued that it works or is better in every scenario. Just that from a basic math standpoint, it’s generally better. Which makes sense since it allows you to have a CR equal to level, and we all know that CR is more powerful than an equal level because the CR is for FOUR PCs of the same level, as a general rule.
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Like I said, he's actually calculating attack chances and deducting damage based on that, unlike you guys with your blanket "T-Rex hits everything, twice, somehow". If you use the same type of analysis for this build, you will find the numbers I mentioned.
It doesn't sound like you want to have a civil discussion though. So...I guess we're done for now. Again, hope things get better for you. And that is not an ad hominem. It's not an attack at all. It's genuine.
Sacrosanct
Legend
I haven’t questioned your intelligence or experience, or called you names, or questioned your mental state. That’s you. I asked you to stop doing that. Pointing out your fundamental flaws and understanding how the rules work (like applying BB and pet attack in same round), or how you’re applying double standards to your examples isn’t being unwilling to have a civil argument. Again, that would be the person who resorted to ad hominem. You. So again, if you feel the need to make a comment about me personally rather than the content of my argument (what an ad hominem is), then I must insist you stop
Iry
Hero
Can we get a specific timestamp? I work 70-84 hours a week.
Hohige
Explorer
The automatic grappling and restrained is alone hard to compete...its insanely good.
Benjamin Olson
Hero
Obviously you need to fight more battles in the most mysterious of all campaign settings, Theorycraftia, where every fight takes place in a large featureless space. All enemies are nondescript bags of hit points with no distinct abilities or tactics. All adventuring parties consist of one ULTIMATE POWER BUILD character who spams the same one to three sets of tactics for every encounter, followed by several irrelevant companions whose principle purpose is to gaze in wide wonder at the ULTIMATE POWER and how it on average does marginally more damage then they can ever dream of.
