D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

[fearsomepirate]

Considering how the sorcerer's various tactics revolve around his opponents never getting a turn

Hence my earlier comparison to Pun-Pun. It's a build that relies on some pretty sketchy interpretations of the rules, particularly how stealth works. Without the sketchy interpretations to exploit, it wasn't anything special, and the battle largely came down to who chose the best spell to cast, given the evolving situation (which is how it's supposed to work).

There are plenty of legitimately powerful exploits, like a Bard or Sorc 2-dipping Warlock to have a punishing at-will attack combined with a large reserve of typical spells, Force Cage shenanigans, and the ol' "stack buffs on the Barbarian, throw him in a room, and run away" maneuver, but these are, for the most part, pretty straightforward and do not make anyone feel particularly clever.

BTW, I ban 2-dipping Warlock at my table. Just how it is.

 

[prabe]

Hence my earlier comparison to Pun-Pun. It's a build that relies on some pretty sketchy interpretations of the rules, particularly how stealth works. Without the sketchy interpretations to exploit, it wasn't anything special, and the battle largely came down to who chose the best spell to cast, given the evolving situation (which is how it's supposed to work).

There are plenty of legitimately powerful exploits, like a Bard or Sorc 2-dipping Warlock to have a punishing at-will attack combined with a large reserve of typical spells, Force Cage shenanigans, and the ol' "stack buffs on the Barbarian, throw him in a room, and run away" maneuver, but these are, for the most part, pretty straightforward and do not make anyone feel particularly clever.

BTW, I ban 2-dipping Warlock at my table. Just how it is.

I agree. I haven't had anyone try to 2-dip warlock in either of the games I'm DMing, so I haven't had to do anything about it--the multiclassing that's happened has honestly been about in-character stuff: the wizard took a level of knowledge cleric because she wants to know everything; the monk took a level of wizard because he wanted ritual casting; the rogue took levels of ranger because the Horizon Walker subclass fit the character's outlook; the ranger took levels of cleric because she had a near-death experience.

Watching him freak out when the rules don't work the way he hopes they do is ... fun, for a while. I'm not always a nice person.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I agree. I haven't had anyone try to 2-dip warlock in either of the games I'm DMing, so I haven't had to do anything about it--the multiclassing that's happened has honestly been about in-character stuff: the wizard took a level of knowledge cleric because she wants to know everything; the monk took a level of wizard because he wanted ritual casting; the rogue took levels of ranger because the Horizon Walker subclass fit the character's outlook; the ranger took levels of cleric because she had a near-death experience.

Watching him freak out when the rules don't work the way he hopes they do is ... fun, for a while. I'm not always a nice person.

It's not so much a god-tier build more so than it violates the principle that multiclassing should sacrifice power for versatility; it's pretty much a flat upgrade in raw power. Getting a Fighter-tier main attack, light armor proficiency, and two rechargeable spell slots is a huge gain in exchange for two levels' worth of spell slots. With the Sorc or Bard, you end up with a Warlock who effectively craps out Fireballs and high-powered Eldritch Blasts at will. With the Paladin, you have a Paladin who uses CHA for his weapon attacks and has a very powerful ranged attack in exchange for a couple smites. EB should have been a class feature, not a cantrip.

 

[prabe]

It's not so much a god-tier build more so than it violates the principle that multiclassing should sacrifice power for versatility; it's pretty much a flat upgrade in raw power. Getting a Fighter-tier main attack, light armor proficiency, and two rechargeable spell slots is a huge gain in exchange for two levels' worth of spell slots. With the Sorc or Bard, you end up with a Warlock who effectively craps out Fireballs and high-powered Eldritch Blasts at will. With the Paladin, you have a Paladin who uses CHA for his weapon attacks and has a very powerful ranged attack in exchange for a couple smites. EB should have been a class feature, not a cantrip.

I guess it depends on why, and how minimally they're dipping. Like, if someone wanted to non-dip Paladin Oath of the Ancients and Feylock (Pact of the Chain)--and had an in-character narrative reason for it--I'd probably allow it, at least provisionally (and yes, that's a character concept I have). I mean, even non-dipping you're probably breaking the classes up based on features or ASIs, which doesn't seem to be as much of a problem.

I don't particularly disagree about Eldritch Blast needing to have been a feature, FWIW. I feel the same way about Hunter's Mark for rangers.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

Well, it seems stuff happened after I went to bed last night. Ultimately not terribly surprising. I think the original poster had a few interesting ideas, but for the most part a lot of the supposed power of the "ultimate" sorcerer relied on questionable rules interpretations and to be fair, Wish, which doesn't say much about the sorcerer as much as that particular spell.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

It's not so much a god-tier build more so than it violates the principle that multiclassing should sacrifice power for versatility; it's pretty much a flat upgrade in raw power. Getting a Fighter-tier main attack, light armor proficiency, and two rechargeable spell slots is a huge gain in exchange for two levels' worth of spell slots. With the Sorc or Bard, you end up with a Warlock who effectively craps out Fireballs and high-powered Eldritch Blasts at will. With the Paladin, you have a Paladin who uses CHA for his weapon attacks and has a very powerful ranged attack in exchange for a couple smites. EB should have been a class feature, not a cantrip.

Sure. But at least you're sacrificing your capstone power. I know that nearly no campaign last enough for the capstone to be meaningful. But right from the PHB you have the worst offender: spell sniper feat, which grants the ability to get eldritch blast using your spellcasting ability, double its range and ignore cover.

I had one player making a dip as Warlock 2 in a campaign that started at level 3. He was so intrigued with the story about his mysterious patron (that was, I decided, a major power in the campaign) that he ended up thematically taking most levels in warlock thereafter.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Sure. But at least you're sacrificing your capstone power. I know that nearly no campaign last enough for the capstone to be meaningful. But right from the PHB you have the worst offender: spell sniper feat, which grants the ability to get eldritch blast using your spellcasting ability, double its range and ignore cover.

I mean, you're sacrificing whatever it is you get at that level, right? The Sorlock in one campaign was Sorc12/War2, so he'd given up his 7th level slot...so he'd given up the chance to cast Finger of Death or whatever once per day to be able to spew out 6d10+6d6+24 damage at will + 60' push. Because, see, with all those Sorcerer slots, he never really runs out of sorcerery points to keep quickening Eldritch Blast. After all, EB is a cantrip, so it doesn't fall under the restriction for bonus action spells!

It was just stupid. There was another true warlock in the party, but he was completely outclassed by the Sorlock. With the Paladin 2-dip, you're using the 2 levels of warlock to nullify the two main weakness of what is a very strong the class: MAD and melee limitations. You can now just max CHA & CON, plus make sure you have 14 DEX to get the most out of medium armor, and you're unstoppable. Your smite power isn't even really reduced much, since you have two L1 slots that recharge on a short rest. Like you even need them, since you Hexed Eldritch Blast the crap out of everything before it gets close.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

Yah, the two level warlock dip in the end doesn't give up much, but during play it will at times miss out at certain levels compared to a single classed character. Spell Sniper can grab it without the dip, but without Agonizing Blast it's only a bit better than Fire Bolt.

 

[Istbor]

Because I convince them.
Persuation check and clear visible casting.
"Persuation check"
As average, The Bastion wins.

Whoa! How did you get to act? No hostile act was taken against you. You aren't in combat. You don't roll initiative.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Whoa! How did you get to act? No hostile act was taken against you. You aren't in combat. You don't roll initiative.

He has a simple solution to everything like that: first he tries an intimidation check against the DM to let him do whatever he wants. With magical guidance, and skill empowerment, and guidance from his pet Drow Matron Mother, and x, y, and z other abilities he has to succeed. The power is so Ultimate!