D&D 5E Unearthed Arcana: Gothic Lineages & New Race/Culture Distinction

The latest Unearthed Arcana contains the Dhampir, Reborn, and Hexblood races. The Dhampir is a half-vampire; the Hexblood is a character which has made a pact with a hag; and the Reborn is somebody brought back to life.

Screen Shot 2021-01-26 at 5.46.36 PM.png



Perhaps the bigger news is this declaration on how race is to be handled in future D&D books as it joins other games by stating that:

"...the race options in this article and in future D&D books lack the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, the Alignment trait, and any other trait that is purely cultural. Racial traits henceforth reflect only the physical or magical realities of being a player character who’s a member of a particular lineage. Such traits include things like darkvision, a breath weapon (as in the dragonborn), or innate magical ability (as in the forest gnome). Such traits don’t include cultural characteristics, like language or training with a weapon or a tool, and the traits also don’t include an alignment suggestion, since alignment is a choice for each individual, not a characteristic shared by a lineage."
 

log in or register to remove this ad

So, you don't want to say that they are lying. Maybe they have forgotten their design intention for a game that they were being paid to design and maintain. Or, as you say, maybe there is small chance they just didn't tell anyone.

Now, I'm going to look at this small chance, what would it mean? It would mean that when they said this was their intent, it was really their intent. That they told us the truth.

Now, let us look at the other possibilities in aggregate, all of them, what would they mean? It would mean that when they said this was their intent, they are lying. That they lied to us, maybe to prevent a seeming social Faux Paux.


And mechanically, or game design-wise going forward, what does this mean? Literally nothing. It matters about as much as the fact that Aloe Vera is succulent. Whether they are lying or not about their original intent changes nothing about the game going forward. And, additionally, you have come across something that is literally impossible to prove. You would need a time machine and the ability to read minds and follow them for the entire design process 24/7 to prove their actual real intent.

Believe they lied or believe they told the truth. The mechanics of the game don't change either way.




See, but who cares what the NPC stats are?

Blacksmiths in my world's tend to have 16 strength if I bother giving them stats. Why? Because they need to be strong enough that the party is going to register "strong" when they do a thing. 12 isn't enough. Sure, it is stronger than average, but most of the party is going to have as good or better. So the blacksmith isn't strong at all.

Let us say that a Guard Captain is grilling the PCs and they need to lie to him. Decent sized town, I'd say they need to roll a 15 or better. If we reverse engineer that, that would give the Guard a 16 Wisdom to have their passive be a 15. And that is regardless of race. Dragonborn, Human, Dwarf, it doesn't matter, I'm not applying those racial modifiers to their statblock anyways.

And this is really the crux of the matter. Way back when for that "City-State of the Invincible Overlord" some game designer took the time to roll 3d6 in order for every single NPC. And someone else used a bell curve to show what an average stat was, then decided that a +2 to that stat would move the curve, therefore showing a slight increase in the average for a population. However, the truth is, very very very few people care, let only use that sort of method anymore.

You say that the statement, "Bold and hardy, dwarves are know as skilled warriors, miners and workers of stone and metal." is not true without that +2 Con and then a +1 Wisdom or a +2 Strength for hill dwarves and mountain dwarves, but that makes quite literally no sense. First of all, +1 Wisdom doesn't apply to any of being skilled warriors, miners, stonemasons or metalsmiths. +2 Con barely applies. So, what, are Hill dwarves not skilled warriors, miners, stonesmiths and metalsmiths? Of course they are. We portray them as such, we make sure that these facets are reflected in their societies, and we have NPCs say "Hey, if you want the best forged weapons, go talk to the dwarves, master smiths all of them."

And then... make that true. Stats literally never come into it. Especially since, if I need a dwarven warrior to showcase how tough and strong a dwarven warrior is... I'm going to be assigning him stats anyways. I'm not going to roll 3d6 and hope that the slightly increased bell curve is going to give me what I want. I want him to be strong and use an axe, he has an axe and an 18 str.


Circling back up to your first paragraph though, your response was kind of "sure why not" which is a very strange response considering most people advocating for keeping these static ASIs as the default act like these things should have been blatantly obvious facts of the world. But, nothing about Lotusden Halflings tell us they are more perceptive except that +1.

You ask why a hobgoblin can't be smarter than a dwarf, because Illithids are smarter than dwarves. Well, reverse it. Why can't Dwarves be smarter than Hobgoblins, after all, Illithids are smarter than hobgoblins? When your example is equally valid in both directions, it becomes kind of obvious that it is mostly arbitrary.

Why is it okay for Minotaurs and Gnolls to be dumber but not orcs? Well, first that implies that they are being treated as dumber, which varies a lot. And second, if it is okay for Orcs to be dumber because Gnolls are dumber, then it should be okay for dwarves and halflings to be dumber because gnolls are dumber. Neither of those races get intelligence penalties either.

And again, this isn't about NPCs, all Illithids are part of a hive mind of hyper-intelligent psionic brains, being schemers and planners is part of their threat against the players. But, by that same token, so are Yuan-ti and Devils. And, high ranking leaders amongst fiends and Yuan-Ti also tend to have higher intelligence. Illithids more so, but, Illithids also use their intelligence stat in combat, so it needs to be higher for them to have the proper combat threat.

I mean, here is a fun little thing. Think about how smart you would play a Rakshasa. A cunning shapechanger and spellcaster who manipulates groups from the shadows, who is cr 13 and likely was the head of a criminal organization that the party has been tangling with for multiple levels as they slowly unravel decades of plotting. Think about how you would play that character.

Now go look at their intelligence. Did it match what you were thinking about this character doing?

Now take the other famous shapechanging fiend, the Succubus. The temptress who is CR 4, probably a minor side character for the real villain, or a low-level investigation threat. Do you think she is smarter than a CR 13 Rakshasa crime lord? Check.


NPC stats don't matter outside of combat. We will play them how we want, and change the stats if it comes to it.
Regarding their statements about intent, you're right: it doesn't change the rules whether they were lying or not. But from my perspective, they changed their intent on ASIs between releasing 5th ed (or fourth, or third, really) and releasing Tasha's. Nothing wrong with that, but they are also claiming their current intent has always been so, and that seems disingenuous to me. It doesn't change anything mechanically, but I can't help but think a little less of them for not admitting they've changed their minds.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

The bonuses you get from a feat (such as, say, Heavy Armour Master), you get because that feat represents you getting used to moving the weight of heavy armour in combat. +1 Str makes sense, +1 Cha would not.

The bonuses you get from your class, say a 20th level barbarian, represent you getting more like an archetypal barbarian, bigger and stronger. You might want to give those +4s to Int and Dex; tough!

If you attune to Gauntlets of Ogre Power, that (believe it or not!) gives you 19 Str, not 19 Con.

All these bonuses represent in game mechanics the particular concept. You can't just see any bonus and re-assign it to a different ability score because "PCs are special!"

And this is also true for racial bonuses.

If you are a halfling or a goliath or whatever, those bonuses you get are for being that race, not just for random character building.

You say you have no problem with halflings in general being weaker than goliaths in general. Great. We agree. But you say that "PCs are special" as if that were an excuse to abandon the reason behind the things you get for being that race.

Anything you get from ANY source represents that source. To get a Str bonus from your chosen race, that race has to be conceptually strong!

I've no problem with a halfling getting high Str from rolling or assigning rolls or scores, or point-buy. I've no problem with them getting high Str from ASIs (or appropriate feats) because they DO represent the areas you have chosen to train. I've no problem with a particular halfling being as strong as Superman!

What I object to is the idea that they are strong because halflings are strong. Because they are not, conceptually, famous for their strength.

Any mechanical bonus a halfling gets from race should be because halflings are like that. Just like goliaths get what they get from their race because goliaths are like that. Even humans get what they get from race because humans are famously adaptable.

If you want your halfling to be strong or your goliath to be weak, this is not a consequence of their biology, it is a consequence of what that individual is like, which is where Determine Ability Scores comes in, with rolling/assigning/point-buy.

Saying "I want my halfling to be the strongest in the world, for free, at first level, unearned" is no different to saying "I want my 1st level fighter to be the best fighter in the world!", or "I want my 1st level fighter to be the best spell caster in the world!"

If you want your character to be better than the rules for race/class/background say you can be, earn it through play.
 

Hill dwarves are a little tougher because of dwarven toughness, I guess. And mountain dwarves are... slightly better than everyone else at what ever it is they are trying to do? Like, they can an extra +2 ASI somewhere instead of just +1 and get an extra proficiency with any armor, weapon or tool? So they are not better at any one thing in particular, they are just better at... something. I just don't see how that is a better story.
Actually, if you really want to get weird, that toughness means a whole lot less than the PC's class, which has nothing to do with race. It is as though they looked at class and decided, that barbarian elf or gnome will be way tougher than that rogue dwarf.
 

Adding to this: the "NPC Features" table (page 282) in the 5E DMG provides a list of ability score adjustments for both PC and monster races, meant to be applied to the NPC stat blocks for any character race other than human. These adjustments are explicitly being applied to NPCs, not the exceptional PCs, and the adjustments from PC races are consistent with the ones for PCs in the PHB. The idea that the PC ASIs represented archetypes distinct from the biology of those races, rather than the way these races simply were, only appeared in the lead-up to Tasha.
This should really say it all. It should end the speculation. But it won't.

I do find it odd that people have to speculate or even are speculating. A simple statement where they say, we want to look at it from a new perspective would end it all.
 

It doesn't "in theory" turn one decision (race) into two (race + ASI). It objectively does this. Unless, of course, defaults continue to be included as well; then it's back to being just one decision, unless you choose to take advantage of that extra flexibility.

Well, that actually depends. If I am picking Firbolg in part because I want Wisdom, then I also picked my ASI, and picking wisdom greatly lowered the options I could pick for a race. There are very very few wisom races after all. And weirdly almost all of them also give you Con.

And this gets into the difference between the types of decisions we are talking about.

If I am wanting to play a paladin, then I look at the races that would work well for a paladin.

Half orc can work, strength and con, and they get a good bonus to crits and the ability to stand back up
Half-Elf gives potentially con, cha and strength, and more skills
Dragonborn give str and cha and their breath weapon as an optional AOE for clearing small fry.
Changelings potentially give str, con and cha and their shapeshifting and extra skills are excellent for infiltration.

Now, to make this decision I need to compare not only the balance of the scores I want, but also the abilities. Is losing out on the savage attacks, orcish resilience, and Con worth the gain to my spellcasting DC and an AOE? I could get all three stats, but that focuses me as a skill monkey, is that what I want?

This is a complicated decision, and I know many people will say that this is the point of the game, and easy decisions spoil us and ruin the game, but think for a moment about splitting those decisions up.

Do you want Str, Con, or Cha? Some of them will give an extra +1 still, but now if you feel like the orcish abilities are more your liking you are not also sacrificing your spellcasting DC. You can decide how you want your paladin's stats seperate from what suite of abilities you want to focus on. It is two easier decisions, since you separated factors out to decide in a different manner.

It's as optional as any DM decision in the game, sure. But they're pretty clear in core 5E that if you want to make a nonhuman NPC, such as an elf, the default adjustments from the PHB and/or DMG are how you do it. Putting it simply, NPCs and PCs had the same ASIs. Again, they seem to have changed their mind on ASIs in 2020, but at the beginning of 5E, they saw things differently.

Or you could not add those adjustments from the PHB and/or DMG and still have your NPC elf the exact same way.

I mean, think about it like this. If you want the Dwarf Blacksmith to have a 16 strength, does he have an 18 Strength? You decided on a 16, but then are you forced to increase it by +2 and give him an 18?

If you decide that the Dwarf Blacksmith has a 16 strength, and wizards removes racial ASIs, does he now have a 14 strength? Because the +2 is no longer there so he has to be lowered to a 14?

No. He has a 16 strength. Whether or not Dwarves get a +2 strength does not matter. Because you weren't rolling his stats randomly, you were picking them directly.
 

Regarding their statements about intent, you're right: it doesn't change the rules whether they were lying or not. But from my perspective, they changed their intent on ASIs between releasing 5th ed (or fourth, or third, really) and releasing Tasha's. Nothing wrong with that, but they are also claiming their current intent has always been so, and that seems disingenuous to me. It doesn't change anything mechanically, but I can't help but think a little less of them for not admitting they've changed their minds.

Fair enough, but if there is a chance they are telling the truth, why not just accept they may be telling the truth?

Honestly, it seems like this gets brought up as a way to say they lied to us, but then no one can prove they lied, and it isn't like we are in a personal relationship with them. It just seems like an odd thing to keep coming up when we have no proof one way or the other.
 

Fair enough, but if there is a chance they are telling the truth, why not just accept they may be telling the truth?

Honestly, it seems like this gets brought up as a way to say they lied to us, but then no one can prove they lied, and it isn't like we are in a personal relationship with them. It just seems like an odd thing to keep coming up when we have no proof one way or the other.
To be perfectly honest, the evidence available points to them prevaricating, for any number of reasons (which it would benefit no one here to relate). That's what I believe, based on what I've seen, and doing that rather than just admitting they've changed their thinking makes me think a little less of them, that's all.
 

The bonuses you get from a feat (such as, say, Heavy Armour Master), you get because that feat represents you getting used to moving the weight of heavy armour in combat. +1 Str makes sense, +1 Cha would not.

The bonuses you get from your class, say a 20th level barbarian, represent you getting more like an archetypal barbarian, bigger and stronger. You might want to give those +4s to Int and Dex; tough!

If you attune to Gauntlets of Ogre Power, that (believe it or not!) gives you 19 Str, not 19 Con.

All these bonuses represent in game mechanics the particular concept. You can't just see any bonus and re-assign it to a different ability score because "PCs are special!"

And this is also true for racial bonuses.

If you are a halfling or a goliath or whatever, those bonuses you get are for being that race, not just for random character building.

You say you have no problem with halflings in general being weaker than goliaths in general. Great. We agree. But you say that "PCs are special" as if that were an excuse to abandon the reason behind the things you get for being that race.

Anything you get from ANY source represents that source. To get a Str bonus from your chosen race, that race has to be conceptually strong!

I've no problem with a halfling getting high Str from rolling or assigning rolls or scores, or point-buy. I've no problem with them getting high Str from ASIs (or appropriate feats) because they DO represent the areas you have chosen to train. I've no problem with a particular halfling being as strong as Superman!

What I object to is the idea that they are strong because halflings are strong. Because they are not, conceptually, famous for their strength.

Any mechanical bonus a halfling gets from race should be because halflings are like that. Just like goliaths get what they get from their race because goliaths are like that. Even humans get what they get from race because humans are famously adaptable.

If you want your halfling to be strong or your goliath to be weak, this is not a consequence of their biology, it is a consequence of what that individual is like, which is where Determine Ability Scores comes in, with rolling/assigning/point-buy.

Saying "I want my halfling to be the strongest in the world, for free, at first level, unearned" is no different to saying "I want my 1st level fighter to be the best fighter in the world!", or "I want my 1st level fighter to be the best spell caster in the world!"

If you want your character to be better than the rules for race/class/background say you can be, earn it through play.


Saying that Gauntlets of Ogre power prove anything is kind of hilarious. A wand of Fireballs cast fireballs. Elven Boots give you advantage on Stealth. Yes, items have bonuses that are specific to that item. That is a non-observation.

Feats too. You say that Heavy Armor Master gives you strength, because that makes sense. I'm curious, doesn't Con also make sense? It is physical conditioning after all. And, yeah, this doesn't apply to every feat, but just like magic items, feats have specific things they give you. War Caster involves a major focus on your ability to cast spells, but doesn't increase your spellcasting ability score in anyway. Magic Initiate can represent studying and learning an entire new style of magic, focused on a new score, and yet that doesn't increase your score with that ability.

And, lest we get too deep in the weeds, what does an ability score improvement at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19 represent? Are those meant for increasing your strength? You constitution? Your Wisdom? You seem to be pointing at that all ability score increases, feats, magic items, class abilities, racial ASIs are all very specific things that give very specific increases to very specific scores. But the biggest place for score increases for a PC is actually the true ASI's right? So, what specific thing do they represent.


And, about earning things through play. Did I have to earn having a demonic ancestor that granted me power through play? Did I have to earn gaining the title as the Faerie Queen's Knight through play? Did I have to earn my spellcasting ability through play? In fact, if I start as a martial, then at level three gain spellcasting, what did I have to do in play to gain that?

You can put your foot down and say that we have to "earn it" but a lot of the things players get that are truly defining for them, they don't earn at all. I didn't earn the ability to play a Tiefling. I didn't earn the ability to play a warlock. I didn't earn the ability to play a bard. I just did. Why should being a strong halfling need to be earned, but playing the Grandchild of the Duke of Acheron, blessed with infernal powers by my grandfather's sword so that I may seek him out and kill him not need to be earned?
 

I admit I could have misinterpreted what you wrote, but to me, it feels like you are saying that all the different people of a race will feel the same, and that all races will feel a same. The halfling will be more similar to the half-orc.
With floating ASIs the halfling paladin will be more similar to the half-orc paladin. Apples to apples. With floating ASIs, they will increase in similarity because most players max out their two primary attributes. So they do increase in similarity. But there will also be an increase in halflings paladins, which could be a good thing. It is a give and take.
Along with the other things you have written, it seems to me that you're viewing a wider variety of race/class combinations (with associated bonuses) to be less desirable. Especially when combined with you not wanting a halfling that feels like a half-orc.
I want races to have a difference between one another. ASIs are one way to do that. There are only so many mechanical factors one can adjust:
  • HP
  • Movement
  • Proficiencies
  • Language
  • Vision/Hearing
  • Skills
  • Size (for carrying capacity)
  • Quirks (like dragon's breath or lucky)
  • and Attributes

That's it. So will you please look at this list and tell me which one has the greatest mechanical impact on gameplay? For me, attributes is probably the greatest, although HP, quirks and movement are important as well. The point being, if we remove attributes from the things race modifies, then you are removing one of the tools used to make a difference between the races. Fewer differences makes them similar. This is why I say it was clunky.
Why are you talking about feats when I'm talking about culture?
Because feats can be determined by culture. Please note, I am not talking about culture, as in: "Those dwarves make the sourest of sourdoughs around." I am talking about the bread and butter of this conversation - mechanical impacts of race - ASIs.

Like I said, I am all for doing it a different way. If you use floating ASIs, I can't understand why. Just increase the point buy. It is literally the same exact thing. Remove the extra step. But if there is another way to show difference between race, then it must be feats. But I can't see feats being agnostic when it comes to class, or at least very few of them will maintain their neutrality. Then you have the entire debate again - why does the halfling get this cultural/racial feat that is so good for paladins? Why can't my half-orc get that feat?

And then to take it a step further, if you make all feats available to all races, then you have almost zero mechanical difference between the races. (I'd still like to see a list of racial feats though.)
What traits of a halfling that lead to a culture?

Hmm, well, looking at Brave and Lucky. OK, so this particular halfling culture builds no towns of their own. No shires or farming villages. The closest they get are building Hostels (actual name to be changed, likely) inside of larger folks' cities. These Hostels aren't actually homes per se, because these halflings are, effectively, a culture of adventures. They travel forth in small groups that consist of friends and siblings, and they see the Hostels are basically hotels, places to drop off loot, recover from injuries, train their skills, regale the kiddies with tales of daring-do, and so on. They see themselves as the pinnacle of the Hero archetype--and as a side effect, view other races as mostly being rather cowardly and simply not very good at getting themselves out of trouble. How the halflings perform their deeds is up to the individual: through cunning wit, magical power, physical might, stealth and precision--it's all good. As long as it makes a good story for the bards to tell. It also means that the people who choose to stay at the Hostels permanently (no talent for or interest in adventuring, have a permanent injury, whatever) are considered second class and are treated as "just the help."

Most of these "Herolings" can trace their ancestry back to at least a couple of heroic halflings (childbearing is something done early and often; childrearing is left to people who are either retired adventurers or to people who are specifically hired for the job--and since in the real world, pregnancy lengths are correlated mostly to the weight of the newborn, plus some extra time in humans for brain development, this means halfling pregnancies are short). As I said, their groups are almost always comprised of halfling; should one of these "herolings" choose to adventure with a non-halfling, it means the halfling either really respects their ability, or will constantly halflspain how real adventurers work.

Halflings of other cultures tend to see these guys as nuts and chronic exaggerators.
And the orcs?

undefined
Those are awesome! I like them. You should definitely continue to develop them. They are worth fleshing out.
So, whether you think these halfling and orc cultures (which, as I said, aren't fully fleshed out) are cool or really stupid, you have to admit that none of them require a +2 in any particular stat.
I agree, none of them require a specific ASI bonus.
What's more interesting to you: a culture of miners, where every member of that culture is at least partially a miner, or a culture of people that relies heavily on mining but people actually take on a wide variety of roles, not all of which relate to mining.
I like the question. In any way shape or form, I like the diverse culture better.

That said, I also like a baseline for PCs and for them to be mechanically different from their tree friends who live down the road. I guess from my logic, people are not travelling 30-40 miles to get to work. You live by the ocean, you learn to clean a fish because that is what you are eating five times a week. You live in the forest, you learn to climb trees.

I have stated it before: I would be fine giving regions the ASI and cultural feat bonuses instead of race. I would not care one bit, as long as they are mechanically different and players get to choose. So the dragonborn that grows up next to the halfling in the city of Verlay, where every child dreams of becoming a knight, gets proficiency with shields and a bonus in strength. Of course the problem with this is someone will come along and say, "I want my desert human to have the shield proficiency and the bonus in strength. Why can't I be an outlier and be like those people from Verlay." And then the conversation starts all over again.
 
Last edited:

I want races to have a difference between one another. ASIs are one way to do that. There are only so many mechanical factors one can adjust:
  • HP
  • Movement
  • Proficiencies
  • Language
  • Vision/Hearing
  • Skills
  • Size (for carrying capacity)
  • Quirks (like dragon's breath or lucky)
  • and Attributes

That's it. So will you please look at this list and tell me which one has the greatest mechanical impact on gameplay? For me, attributes is probably the greatest, although HP, quirks and movement are important as well. The point being, if we remove attributes from the things race modifies, then you are removing one of the tools used to make a difference between the races. Fewer differences makes them similar. This is why I say it was clunky.

See, I disagree with you entirely that "attributes" are the greatest difference between races. For a multitude of reasons.

1) There are races with the same Attributes that feel very different. A Half-Orc and a Minotaur both get +2 str/ +1 con, but they do not feel similar at all, even with the same class.

2) Attributes are passive and invisible to the table. I have legitimately had the experience of a wizard who suddenly pulled of feats of stealth, shocking the whole table, and having to remind us that he had rolled a 16 for dexterity. The other players don't always notice or remember your scores. I can't tell you what the monk's strength is. There is a guy who is playing a cleric, was a bard, I have no idea what his intelligence actually is. I remember it is low only because I remember my rogue with his 10 was one of the smartest people in the party.

Unrelated, but HP does nothing for 99% of races. I just wanted to point this out, I think hill dwarves are the only race that gets a +1 hp per level, and that can be easily subsumed based on class choice and Con mod. Language is another one that really pretty much never comes up.


So. Sure, I guess we are removing a tool. But we are removing one of the least descriptive and least useful differences. Something that isn't going to matter nearly as much as how you are described, your class, and those "quirks" that activate during the game.
 

Remove ads

Remove ads

Top