D&D 5E Comparing Monk DPR

[doctorbadwolf]

Ok that does seem a bit clunky. Maybe keep deflect missiles as a reaction (as is).

- But if the monk uses Patient defense as a reaction (so 1 Ki) they ALSO roll deflect missiles and get that many temp HP against ranged attacks while patient defense is up. Kind of the monk entering a seriously defensive stance. Still a bit clunky - but it's a start.

Yeah that is why I am thinking about making them the same mechanic...just, 1 ki as a bonus action or reaction to give all attacks disadvantage, and 1/round counter a failed attack.

Your way is also good, because it’s even more defensive, though.

 

[S'mon]

Not relevant. It is a fast controller. Boosting it to Bruce Lee damage while keeping all of that is over powered.

If you want just damage, you aren't looking at a boost, you're looking at a redesign of the class focus. Make a new class - maybe even one that multiclasses nicely with the existing monk so people can mix and match.

The 4e Avenger class did the Striker-type 'Monk' nicely.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Not relevant. It is a fast controller. Boosting it to Bruce Lee damage while keeping all of that is over powered.

If you want just damage, you aren't looking at a boost, you're looking at a redesign of the class focus. Make a new class - maybe even one that multiclasses nicely with the existing monk so people can mix and match.

That would solve the problem. It's too bad this problem has persisted across at least two editions.

 

[jgsugden]

Some things to consider:

1.) Monks can do damage earlier than other classes with their high mobility. I often get into melee a round before the other members of my party, and usually go before the heavy weapon hitters.
2.) Part of the damage others deal is monk damage. When we stun, and someone gets advantage, and hits because of that advantage, that is our damage.
3.) When we Flurry, we make 4 attacks. We can do this at 5th level. Each of our attacks may deal less damage than the heavy hitters, but we lose less to overkill as well.

So, DPR may be lower, but effective damage per combat is going to be closer, if not better, than slow moving heavy hitters.

My 8th level monk has a flame tongue short sword. He deals (d6+5 piercing + 2d6 fire) on his multi-attacks and d6+6 (blunt force trauma) on his unarmed strikes (Insignia of Claws). Under Tasha's rules, I could do better - but I find that is plenty effective. He also is a Vhuman and has Hex from Magic Adept (which he primarily uses out of combat - to give someone disadvantage on their chance to detect him when he sneaks or pick pockets). However, when he snuck up on a dragon, he managed to hex it and get off a dozen strikes on it for 12 d6 additional damage, and he also uses to pump up damage when he is forced to use a bow to attack a flying enemy.

Regardless, combats generally go like this:

We encounter enemies and start off at a distance of over 30 feet. I usually go early, charge into the fray and get at least 2 chances to stun something nasty. I often have enough movement to retreat, or I use a bit of Ki to take the Dodge action and absorb a bunch of attacks and keep the enemy contained.

Sometimes I get the drop on the enemies when they're poorly positioned and (being an open hand monk) I am able to send them off a cliff, into lava, etc... The DM had intended for one BBEG to be a recurring villain - but I snuck up invisible on it when it was giving an inspirational speech from the balcony of his lava surrounded fortress.... Hit, stun, flurry hit push 15 over the railing and down into lava near a wall and 90 feet from any shore. I highly respect the DM for not cheating to save the BBEG and to let the story unfold as it did. The inspirational speech devolved into panic from his troops... Fond memory.

 

[Stormonu]

Also, on the subject of Flurry: the monk can conceivably attack different targets, possibly putting multiple foes out of commission for a round by stunning each; while that is vastly reducing his DPS, you’re possibly looking at the party taking substantially less damage from lost enemy attacks. This is one of the few cases in D&D where not focusing down a foe may actually be helpful.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not wasting damage to overkill is a big deal. If we could accurately model enemies dropping from the first 1/4 of the damage the rogue does vs the monk going to on to hit the next guy and getting him to within 1 hit from the fighter away from death, the Monk starts to look a lot better than the graphs show.

However, the monk would still be fairly low on DPR, with little way to optimize, and too much reliance on stunning strike, which is boring after a few levels.

So, for variety, I propose 2 more abilities at level 5, and upgrades for all three level 2 features at level 11ish, and a change to Patient Defense and Deflect Missiles.

Level 2 you replace Patient Defense with:

• As a reaction, you can spend 1 ki to give all attacks against you disadvantage until the start of your next turn.

Level 4, you get:

• Redirect Attack - When an attack misses you, you can redirect or counter the attack, once per round. If the attack is a ranged attack, and you have a hand free, you can catch the missile and throw it back (as per deflect missiles). If the attack is within your melee reach, you can make a melee weapon attack against the target. (My only problem with this is...deflect missiles is more fun lol but still...barring making it a stance you have to invest in ahead of time, that lets you deflect without using your reaction, or something like that, this is the best compromise I can see)

Level 5, in addition to stunning strike, you get:

• Stunning Strike - 1/turn you can stun by spending a ki when you hit with a melee weapon attack. If the target succeeds on the save, you can spend 1 ki to give them disadvantage on the next saving throw they make before the start of your next turn.
• Devastating Strike - When you hit, once per turn, you can spend 1 ki to deal an extra 2d6 force damage to the target. You can spend additional ki to gain more damage, at later levels. At levels 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20, you can add 1 ki to the strike, gain an additional 1d6 for each extra ki you spend. (This is great for a character that attacks a lot, since you can save it for when you crit)
• Break The Limit - When you are asked to make a Strength or Dexterity check, you can spend 1 ki to add a bonus to Strength and Dexterity checks equal to your Martial Arts die plus your Wisdom modifier. When you do, you also add the same amount to your walking speed, your range with thrown weapons, and your jump height and length, until the end of your next turn. (this gives a lot of versatility in and out of combat to the monk)

At level 9 you get improved Unarmored Movement, as usual, and,

• Improved Step of The Wind - When you use Step of The Wind, your jump distance is tripled, rather than doubled.

At level 11, you gain

• Improved Flurry of Blows - When you use Flurry of Blows, you gain a bonus to damage equal to your Wisdom modifier until the end of your next turn.

At level 12, you gain

• Incredible Defense - When you use Patient Defense and an attack hits you, you can reduce the damage of the incoming attack by 1d10+your dexterity modifier.

 

[Stormonu]

On the Incredible Defense, should possibly add “If you reduce the damage to 0, the attack is considered a miss”. (Allowing you to then use Redirect Attack).

 

[Blue]

The 4e Avenger class did the Striker-type 'Monk' nicely.

Exactly - they designed one from the ground up as a striker. A great example of the point.

 

[Stalker0]

It should also be noted that where the white room analysis fails is that part of the DMs job (at least imo) is to help promote each player to feel cool and special in some moments....while also hitting their weaknesses occasionally, to give them a wide range of interesting opportunities.

So the Monk for example, if I'm DMing a monk, I will include more ranged enemies than normal. Suddenly that deflect missiles starts looking REALLY good. Likewise, I will try to mix in monsters with lower con saves, to let the Monk get to stun and feel cool. This is why you can't look at the MM manual and say "X% of monsters have a high con save, the monk is screwed".

Its the same as if I was dming a sorc that was all about area blasts, I would absolutely want to include more groups of monsters so they could show off. If I just used a single monster all the time, they wouldn't feel so great.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

On the Incredible Defense, should possibly add “If you reduce the damage to 0, the attack is considered a miss”. (Allowing you to then use Redirect Attack).

Great point!