D&D 5E Lightning Bolt should be better.

[wicked cool]

Other than wildshape. Maybe your right and I haven’t been playing them right but I find most other class’s especially spellcasters superior

let’s take curse of strahd-I find wizards and clerics superior for this adventure? How did your Druid do in this

which adventure do they shine in?

don’t find them as a good solo class compared to a rogue or fighter etc

online YouTube play throughs . Not seeing druids effectively played compared to a mage of same level

Back on topic Wizards need retooling on at least 1/2 the spells. Many of the great 1e/2e spells such as sleep and web etc aren’t as good anymore. Why take lightning bolt over fireball?

with limited spell slots you are just hurting yourself my taking a lot of crappy spells

 

[Ruin Explorer]

From what you say, it sounds like you're not playing a moon druid (as you're focused on the spellcasting). I have not found many that think any other druid really compares to a Twilight, Forge, Light (I don't agree on this one, but many really like it), Tempest, Order or War cleric in power levels, especially at low to medium levels.

What druid subclass build do you think surpasses those?

I dunno about "surpasses", I'm talking about "on-par", and we were talking PHB so stuff like Twilight or Forge would be excluded, and Moon is certainly included, whether people like it or not. Land is on-par with most of the Clerics, Moon is above all of the Clerics at certain levels. Tempest or War might be slightly ahead of Land on paper, but it's going to be a photo finish in actual gameplay.

Once you start adding in more books, I feel that, unless we're talking very specific archetypes (like Twilight Cleric, which I've also played), Druid is perhaps sliiiiightly better than Cleric in general, esp. with Tashas so shapeshifting is much less likely to get wasted (you can create a little familiar to go scout with it instead etc).

And frankly Goodberry alone is mad, given it can be used to turn left over spell slots directly into precise healing (good thing you can't upcast it because good lord!).

Personally the one I've been playing is the one from the 3PP Odyssey of the Dragonlords campaign, I forget the name, which I'd say is slightly above a Land Druid in power but well below a Moon Druid.

Druids in general are ranked as strong performers by virtually all analysis, and I've found this pans out in games. Clerics are decent too. I just think the idea that Druids are "subpar" is pretty ridiculous and smacks of a lack of both actual play experience and system mastery (not that the latter is required, but it is to be recommended to anyone making claims that classes are "subpar").

 

[tetrasodium]

Well they still get the same spell list as base druids. But I certainly see what you mean - they are a step above at low levels, and they play very differently (than other druids) .

That said, other druids are pretty great too, full casters with many other perks. When compared to other classes I can't see them as anything resembling weak.

WotC sets a trap by forcing players to split hairs with the stupid metal armor thing & making it hard for them to use barding by not having it fold into their base form like the base form's equipment into wildshape I've seen them do ok as a damage sponge up till 16 or so in halfplate & plate barding.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

let’s take curse of strahd-I find wizards and clerics superior for this adventure? How did your Druid do in this

This is such a mind-boggling question on so many levels, like, it's almost like something a video gamer would say. Why on earth would I have necessarily played Strahd? I mean I have, but it's a miracle that I have. I suspect less than 10% of D&D players have. And I played a Paladin in that campaign so I have no idea. However, there was a Moon Druid in the group and he was an absolute BEAST in every sense. The idea that you select a class because they're "good at an adventure" is completely wild. That's absolutely how people operate in MMORPGs, but bonkers in the context of TT RPGs I'd suggest (esp. as it's quite likely you don't even know you're playing Strahd until you are!).

don’t find them as a good solo class compared to a rogue or fighter etc

This is also mind-boggling. They're flatly a better "solo" class than either of those. Any armoured caster or partial caster with self-healing is pretty much top-notch for soloing in D&D. Moon Druids are so much better than those classes for "solo" play that it's an absolute joke. A Moon Druid with a pocket full of Goodberries is probably close to unstoppable in "solo" play (assuming the challenges are things designed for any solo class to potentially get past). And Druids have very effective summons, too, which absolutely dominate in solo or small group play.

online YouTube play throughs . Not seeing druids effectively played compared to a mage of same level

I can't comment on whether randos on the internet are playing their Druid right in some "YouTube play through".

I can comment that Druids are a very solid class and the idea that they're a bad solo class strongly suggests you basically don't understand them mechanically.

 

[Mort]

Other than wildshape. Maybe your right and I haven’t been playing them right but I find most other class’s especially spellcasters superior

Other than wildshape? "but other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?"

Forgetting the moon druid's combat wildshape (which is just ridiculous at low levels), wildshape is really versatile.

let’s take curse of strahd-I find wizards and clerics superior for this adventure? How did your Druid do in this

which adventure do they shine in?

Ran the group through the Parnast series (AL modules). Party was a sorcerer, ranger, monk and druid (full disclosure these were 13 year olds, nobody in my "regular" group took a druid). The Druid was clearly the powerhouse of the group (though admittedly, 1. they didn't powergame in the slightest 2. the actual classes weren't themselves powerhouses). Still though the druid stood out.

don’t find them as a good solo class compared to a rogue or fighter etc

online YouTube play throughs . Not seeing druids effectively played compared to a mage of same level

The only druid I've seen played online was the one on Critical Role. Other than the fact that the player (especially early on) didn't play her all that effectively, the druid seemed to be fairly top tier.

Back on topic Wizards need retooling on at least 1/2 the spells. Many of the great 1e/2e spells such as sleep and web etc aren’t as good anymore.

I found trying to compare to past versions of the spells just leads to frustration and madness, 5e is it's own game.

Sleep is amazing for early levels. My players are about to start The Sunless Citadel - effective use of sleep in that module can shut down many of the encounters, and it's not concentration.

Web is also amazing as an early level control spell - it can effectively restrain opponents and turn them into pincushions (granted you need the right party for it).

Why take lightning bolt over fireball?

with limited spell slots you are just hurting yourself my taking a lot of crappy spells

I find this is a much bigger for sorcerers and their limited spell selection vs. wizards (and their much larger one). But as to the greater issue, there ARE too many throw away spells that are barely worth it - and then there are the standouts, so true choice is much more limited than it appears. This should be addressed.

 

[Mort]

don’t find them as a good solo class compared to a rogue or fighter etc

Since you mention online videos you might find this one interesting. I don't always agree with him, but the analysis is pretty good here, and lines up with my own experience.

 

[wicked cool]

This is such a mind-boggling question on so many levels, like, it's almost like something a video gamer would say. Why on earth would I have necessarily played Strahd? I mean I have, but it's a miracle that I have. I suspect less than 10% of D&D players have. And I played a Paladin in that campaign so I have no idea. However, there was a Moon Druid in the group and he was an absolute BEAST in every sense. The idea that you select a class because they're "good at an adventure" is completely wild. That's absolutely how people operate in MMORPGs, but bonkers in the context of TT RPGs I'd suggest (esp. as it's quite likely you don't even know you're playing Strahd until you are!).


This is also mind-boggling. They're flatly a better "solo" class than either of those. Any armoured caster or partial caster with self-healing is pretty much top-notch for soloing in D&D. Moon Druids are so much better than those classes for "solo" play that it's an absolute joke. A Moon Druid with a pocket full of Goodberries is probably close to unstoppable in "solo" play (assuming the challenges are things designed for any solo class to potentially get past). And Druids have very effective summons, too, which absolutely dominate in solo or small group play.


I can't comment on whether randos on the internet are playing their Druid right in some "YouTube play through".

I can comment that Druids are a very solid class and the idea that they're a bad solo class strongly suggests you basically don't understand them mechanically.

Well strahd is the most popular d&d published adventure

hey maybe your right on I don’t understand druids as well as I should

I do play d&d to have fun and win. I want to be effective in combat and outside of combat

Circle of land
Call lightning/moonbeam? Do you have to be outside for either?

 

[houser2112]

Moving away from Vancian casting was a brave move. Though i think people seriously overestimate how far Level+Int spells go. A level 5 wizard gets 8 or 9 spells realistically. Three per spell level. That doesn’t leave a lot of flexibility.

I was with you until you said this. I agree that moving away from Vancian was brave (and good riddance!), but a level 5 wizard only has 9 slots. If he started with a 16 Int, and used his 4th level ASI on Int, he can prepare exactly as many spells as he has slots, so he's as versatile as he could ever be under the paleovancian system. Same with 9th level (the only wizard level after 5th where he gains more than one slot, potentially outstripping the prep slots gained from leveling). If he spent his 8th level ASI on Int, he can prepare exactly as many spells as he has spell slots.

So unless your wizard suffers from a low Int for some reason, he's never lacking a spell prepared that he wouldn't also be lacking if he had to do paleovancian preparation.

 

[Ancalagon]

FFS. Listen. I've said over and over that I consider this DM discretion on how the spell operates. Do whatever you want. Stop telling me how to have fun. I acknowledge you can do what you want - stop telling me I am wrong if what I say is not opposed by the friggin rules.

And if you'd like to go through and list all the evocations by type of damage and note what percentage of each damage type list an auditory element in the description... feel free.

4 big lightning spells - no auditory element identified.

Fireball, aganazzar's scorcher, delayed blast fireball, fire storm, flame strike - all have auditory descriptions. Not all fire spells do, but a lot of them do.

FEEL FREE TO DO WHAT YOU WANT. OTHERS ARE FREE TO DO WHAT THEY WANT.

yes, you have the right to run the game AS YOU WANT. It's up to you.

You can have ice sink. You can have predators attacking mindlessly while seriously outnumbered and fighting to the death for no reason. You can have people not react to PCs with zombies in tow. You can have lightning make no sound. You can have well traveled roads swarming with monsters. You can have people take 8 hours to cross a body of water by boat and still be able to see the other side. You can have the enemy army sneak up on a village (despite having to cross same said body of water). Etc etc etc.

BUUUUT

Some people might think that your rulings make no sense, and tell you. That's a consequence of talking about your rulings online. Sometimes people will disagree with you.

 

[Voadam]

Circle of land
Call lightning/moonbeam? Do you have to be outside for either?

From Call Lightning:

"A storm cloud appears in the shape of a cylinder that is 10 feet tall with a 60-foot radius, centered on a point you can see 100 feet directly above you. The spell fails if you can’t see a point in the air where the storm cloud could appear (for example, if you are in a room that can’t accommodate the cloud)."

From Moonbeam:

"A silvery beam of pale light shines down in a 5-foot radius, 40-foot-high cylinder centered on a point within range. Until the spell ends, dim light fills the cylinder."