How Do You Feel About NPC Party Members (A Poll)

[Thomas Shey]

One knows one's own Armor, and how often they should get hit, at least if one is proficient.,m

Look at how many iterations of that one would need to have occur to figure that with any reliability with a system as swingy as a D20 some time.

Likewise, the training rules aren't just a PC thing; they are there to limit PC growth, but they are done by NPCs, and the NPC has to figure out the relative skill to be able to teach the student the new material.

Every ability is testable.

There's nothing to suggest many opponents are even vaguely in situations to get what one would think of as training, and yet they still arrived at their skill somehow.

 

[aramis erak]

Look at how many iterations of that one would need to have occur to figure that with any reliability with a system as swingy as a D20 some time.



There's nothing to suggest many opponents are even vaguely in situations to get what one would think of as training, and yet they still arrived at their skill somehow.

Given the 8 hour days, 5 days a week, for several weeks in training? Yes, you are going to get the needed repetitions.
Also another case where it's clear that NPCs have an awareness of level: high level druids and assassins have to seek out their better in order to advance, and defeat them in a duel.

 

[S'mon]

For my current 5e campaign there are typically some PC-class NPCs with the parties; one party has 8 PCs & 1 PC-class NPC; another has 7 PCs, 2 PC-class NPCs, and 1 NPC-build Bard played as a PC (the character started off as a 1e AD&D PC, became a 5e NPC, the player asked to resume playing the character & keep the NPC stats). I find it works very well and I've definitely not seen any resentment from the players; they see NPC allies as a valuable resource that helps them stay alive. Most of the PC-class NPCs cap at 4th level, so won't overshadow the PCs; a couple of the NPCs are uncapped but one of those is pregnant & will presumably need to stop adventuring at some point, the other is currently a 2nd level Fighter when most of the PCs in the party are 4th level.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Given the 8 hour days, 5 days a week, for several weeks in training? Yes, you are going to get the needed repetitions.
Also another case where it's clear that NPCs have an awareness of level: high level druids and assassins have to seek out their better in order to advance, and defeat them in a duel.

Having a sense of overall capability is not the same as having a sense of level. There are all kinds of games that do nothing with levels but people still know a powerful mage is powerful.

 

[aramis erak]

Having a sense of overall capability is not the same as having a sense of level. There are all kinds of games that do nothing with levels but people still know a powerful mage is powerful.

The mechanics of AD&D make them intimately linked for combat.

 

[Thomas Shey]

The mechanics of AD&D make them intimately linked for combat.

Even in early D&D they weren't that tight; a range of levels had the same hit chance, different classes had different hit chances at the same level, and there were things like attribute bonuses and magic bonuses that could modify them in either direction.

 

[aramis erak]

Even in early D&D they weren't that tight; a range of levels had the same hit chance, different classes had different hit chances at the same level, and there were things like attribute bonuses and magic bonuses that could modify them in either direction.

I've been consistently referencing AD&D 1E.
Fighters are level-based to a lesser degree than spellcasters, but combat is tighter than the other. You can immediately assign a level based upon seeing a spell cast. If they drop a fireball, they're at least 3rd level. If they drop a cloudkill, at least ninth. If they drop 3 cloudkills...that's at least 13th IIRC. And if they cannot memorize your cloudkill... Since one can estimate strength, one can then factor it out.

So many elements of the game are affected by levels that it's pretty easy to do the math. Any fighter with a group of incompetent hangers-on is at least 9th. (all those 1st level followers.)

Plus, that the trainers can turn you away if you can't benefit pretty much puts paid to your denials. If they can tell, then it has to exist in some way in the setting.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Reifying something as clearly game-balance based as that rule regarding trainers turning you away will produce dumb assumptions no matter where you do it in gaming. Its the sort of thing that makes people decide D&D hit points are meat points.