D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Minigiant]

I still think the key is consistency vs scope.

Casters get "scope"....ability to do things that martials can only dream of. This is the "utility" concept many discuss.

Martials get consistency. While there effects are weaker....they simply work. No saving throws no risks....if I want X to happen, by gum X will happen.


I feel that is the way to give casters their "magic" while allowing Martials the equivalent feeling of power with various abilities.

I don't even think it's that complected.

Just print the new classes and optional rules.

The WHOLE problem is that WOTC only officially supports one style with officials rules and expects tables and DMs to write complex systems themselves despite them saying they would originally support multiple game styles.

So until someone writes a 3rd party book for each genre that goes viral...

 

[Sithlord]

One person's common sense is another's "Sneak attack is too powerful and rogues should be nerfed at all possible oppertunities"

Martials have to play "DM May I?", caster's don't

Dm may I. When the fighter whines that he can’t part water or teleport.

 

[Minigiant]

Yeet: The DM allowed using STR to grapple enemies and yeet them 30 feet away, which was always nice and allowed him to control enemy positions at the cost of not really attacking for a turn. Throwing a cultist inside a blood elemental was a high point

My Saturday table has both Yeet and Kobe rules.

My Sunday table's DM won't allow them.

 

[ph0rk]

Casters get "scope"....ability to do things that martials can only dream of. This is the "utility" concept many discuss.

Martials get consistency. While there effects are weaker....they simply work. No saving throws no risks....if I want X to happen, by gum X will happen.

Which isn't a bad idea at all (and true to older editions), but then they borked it all up with resources that refresh at different rates, which means even some "consistent" classes would play very differently at different tables.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Yes. I assume the intention is for it to be challenging.

Also, the way it was presented would be equally unfair and breaks versimilitude.

Think about the case where the Purple Worm happens to get a 19 in initiative and the rest of the party gets >19. Congrats, the worm gets to go first. If it targets the wizard, even with a +5 Con, the wizard takes enough damage to be outright unconscious and eaten.

Its important to be consistent because most rules are there for the sake of fairness.

This feels like you are sidestepping the issue to avoid responding to the hypothetical I laid out.

It is a 4-person level 9 party. I specifically did not go into detail of what the make-up of the party was or what probability they had to defeat the Worm.

The level 9 wizard has a 60% chance to defeat the worm with a single spell. The only “optimization” for the wizard is that they have 20 Int and know the Polymorph spell.

Does any non-spellcaster have anything that is comparatively effective?

 

[Don Durito]

Dm may I. When the fighter whines that he can’t part water or teleport.

"DM May I" is basically this.

DM: You see a group of orcs coming down the corridor to provide reinforcements.
Wizard: I cast wall of something to block the corridor.

With a Fighter the equivalent situation is more:

DM: You see a group of orcs coming down the corridor to provide reinforcements.
Fighter: (Looks around) Can I grab that large heavy table in the middle of the room, turn it over and shove it across the corrridor to block their approach?

The former can always happen. The second is heavily dependent on the DM, and on the DM ruling to enable the player rather than by some other priority. If it takes the DM too long to resolve than the Fighter player may never try such a thing again. If the GM rules that a Strength roll is needed to overturn the table and push it and the Fighter fails, the player is likely to learn that stunts will often lead to wasted turns.

The wizard player can just do it. Now I personally think it's a lot more fun to do things the Fighter way, but it seems GMs that are comfortable with that sort of thing in combats as complex as 5e are rare (That sort of thing flows much more naturally in something like Barbarians of Lemuria which is more barebones across the board. Simple can work as a launching points for stunts in a system - but only, in my experience, when that simplicity is across the board, and not just limited to one class).

 

[tetrasodium]

This feels like you are sidestepping the issue to avoid responding to the hypothetical I laid out.

It is a 4-person level 9 party. I specifically did not go into detail of what the make-up of the party was or what probability they had to defeat the Worm.

The level 9 wizard has a 60% chance to defeat the worm with a single spell. The only “optimization” for the wizard is that they have 20 Int and know the Polymorph spell.

Does any non-spellcaster have anything that is comparatively effective?

the hypothetical is absurd because it ignores that after the polymorphed creature is killed it goes back to the original as is. That's the reason why people don't generally use it as you decribed

 

[FrozenNorth]

If you can’t handle magic. Then play in a low magic campaign. I don’t know what else to say to you if you really struggle that much dealing with magic.

You haven’t responded to any of my prompts of situations where casters can simply short-circuit encounters.

It would be a lot easier for me to understand why you think I’m wrong if you actually addressed my points, instead of condescendingly telling me “to go play in a low magic campaign”.

 

[FrozenNorth]

the hypothetical is absurd because it ignores that after the polymorphed creature is killed it goes back to the original as is. That's the reason why people don't generally use it as you decribed

Then don’t kill the polymorphed creature? The party has defeated the Purple Worm. They ride away. One hour later, the Purple Worm reverts to its initial form. It can’t track the party, and isn’t intelligent enough to.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Turn it into a worm, give it to your familiar and tell it to fly away with it in the opposite direction that you're going.