D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[CleverNickName]

Seriously though. If someone steals my wizard's spell component pouch (or my cleric's holy symbol, etc.) in combat and shuts down all of my spells, I'd make it very hard for it to ever happen again. A spare spell component pouch only costs 25gp, and that's pretty cheap insurance against having a lucky rogue shut your spellcasting down.

 

[ECMO3]

Told ya I was bowing out of this with you. I’m sure someone else will explain for me.

Then why have you replied to me twice since then?

Please have someone explain that because I do not understand it.

 

[ECMO3]

Seriously though. If someone steals my wizard's spell component pouch (or my cleric's holy symbol, etc.) in combat, I'd make it very hard for it to happen again. A spare spell component pouch only costs 25gp, and that's pretty cheap insurance against having a lucky rogue shut your spellcasting down.

One of my PCs has a component pouch and a spare wand kept in his backpack. The wand is there in case he loses his component pouch (as has happened).

IME a component pouch is strictly better than a focus, but a focus gets the job done if the pouch is lost.

 

[FrogReaver]

Then why have you replied to me twice since then?

I didn’t? My only reply to you since then was the first time you quoted me after that. And all it was for was as a reminder that I’m not discussing that with you.

 

[Maxperson]

The specific beats the general. In general 5E assumes high alert, but the hand is invisible and it specifically says the Rogue can do this on a bonus action in the description. That makes no sense if it is not a combat use. Crawford has said that you can use the normal mage hand during combat for the same things you can normally do with it out of combat.

Also the rules say specifically it is a contested SOH vs perception check. If it was a straight check that was not in the rules specific to this spell I might agree with a DC 20-25, but this is a spell that causes a contested SOH check.

Okay. So it's only one subclass that can do it. I'm okay with that, but it would still only get one object from inside the pouch, so it wouldn't be very effective at stopping a Wizard in the middle of a fight.

 

[Aldarc]

That's why I personally dislike the 6-8 encounter model for balance. I can respect making it 2-3ish....and so if I want to have 1 encounter in a day the casters will be a bit strong, and if I have 4-5, the martials win the day. That's a light adjustment I can work with. Having to generate 6-8 full encounters to maintain balance is just a chore to me.

I find it a bit strange that the lesson that WotC learned from 4e - a game meant to have 2-3 combats per day as dramatic center pieces - was that people wanted shorter combats, but then decided to balance around 6-8 combats presumed combats per day.

Ultimately 3e's solution was to keep the fighters mundane....and rely on ever increasing sources of magic to give the fighters "mythic" abilities..... fly, teleport, etc. This "in theory" allowed a group to tailor the mythicness to their own tastes....in practice though I found it a clunky solution and one where the casters still tended to dominate at higher levels regardless.

"Better let me have the magic item, Billy Bob Swordmaster, I am the magical wizard after all."

 

[Don Durito]

I find it a bit strange that the lesson that WotC learned from 4e - a game meant to have 2-3 combats per day as dramatic center pieces - was that people wanted shorter combats, but then decided to balance around 6-8 combats presumed combats per day.


"Better let me have the magic item, Billy Bob Swordmaster, I am the magical wizard after all."

It's the whole back to the dungeon thing.

It makes a certain sense if you think of 5e as trying to emulate the basic old explore as far into the dungeon as you can style of play. (Even then it has issues, it's slower than something like B/X, making it a lot harder to get through all those fights in an evening of play, while the easier fights lack the tension of earlier editions where one or two bad rolls could still see the end of your character).

It's also I think a product of how much PCs get. They now have twice as much effective hit points a day, due to hit dice, while casters now have effectively more spells due to cantrips as well. And you couple that with trying to build all that onto what is effectively 3e's maths with the expectation that there is still a sort of parity between how pcs and npcs are built, at least in that they use the same spells and do the same kind of weapon damage and you basically need more encounters.

For whatever reason, perhaps simply because the playtests revealed that people liked them, they weren't willing to strip out 4e add ons such as at-will attack magic and the ability to self-heal. (Although the latter also makes encounters a lot easier to effectively balance).

 

[Aldarc]

It's the whole back to the dungeon thing.

It makes a certain sense if you think of 5e as trying to emulate the basic old explore as far into the dungeon as you can style of play. (Even then it has issues, it's slower than something like B/X, making it a lot harder to get through all those fights in an evening of play, while the easier fights lack the tension of earlier editions where one or two bad rolls could still see the end of your character).

It's also I think a product of how much PCs get. They now have twice as much effective hit points a day, due to hit dice, while casters now have effectively more spells due to cantrips as well. And you couple that with trying to build all that onto what is effectively 3e's maths with the expectation that there is still a sort of parity between how pcs and npcs are built, at least in that they use the same spells and do the same kind of weapon damage and you basically need more encounters.

For whatever reason, perhaps simply because the playtests revealed that people liked them, they weren't willing to strip out 4e add ons such as at-will attack magic and the ability to self-heal. (Although the latter also makes encounters a lot easier to effectively balance).

And despite all this, 2-3 combats basically remained the prevailing norm for 5e.

 

[Don Durito]

And despite all this, 2-3 combats basically remained the prevailing norm for 5e.

I think most people don't actually want to go back to the dungeon.

 

[Aldarc]

I think most people don't actually want to go back to the dungeon.

Well the OSR people that WotC was trying to court overwhelmingly stayed with OSR, Critical Role didn't want to go to the dungeon, and the ex-3e/PF1 players were still mostly operating as per the 5MWD.