D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

Should spellcasters be as effective as martial characters in combat?

  • 1. Yes, all classes should be evenly balanced for combat at each level.

    Votes: 11 5.3%
  • 2. Yes, spellcasters should be as effective as martial characters in combat, but in a different way

    Votes: 111 53.9%
  • 3. No, martial characters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 49 23.8%
  • 4. No, spellcasters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 8 3.9%
  • 5. If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?

    Votes: 27 13.1%

  • Poll closed .
You are only a great martial leader because nothing else exists! People are saying that Battlemaster leader shouldn’t be the weakness of a martial leader. The peakness of a martial leader should and can be much more, and you need to get to those levels to model certain fictional concepts and stay reasonably balanced as a game construct. So, yes, once you raise the bar on leadership you no longer can be both elite warrior and elite leader for balance sake.
IMO this shows the conceptual issue I keep bringing up. Right now the Battlemaster due to being the only Leader in town covers every leader concept from mediocre leader to elite leader. By insisting that a better mechanical leader exist you are not increasing conceptual space, so much transferring some of the Fighters conceptual space to the 'Warlord'.

This is why concepts shouldn't get thought of in terms of better or worse - because for every mechanical representation of a concept, we can always think of one better or one worse.

I kinda get how this diminishes your concept, but since the current implementation of "elite martial leader" wasn't that great, I don't see it as a big loss to move that to average or good fictional leadership positioning.
If you get how that diminishes the concept then you can see why that is a big loss.

People don't get to have concepts where they are both elite warriors and elite spellcasters either. It's a design choice that opens up the Elite leadership/good fighting concept I guess at the expense of Elite leadership / Elite Warrior concept. But since the current Elite Leader concept implementation is pretty lame, we are just losing some relative status.
I think it's a design choice sums this up very nicely.

You still have the Elite Fighter/good leader Battlemaster, which apparently a bunch of people are happy with anyway.
I think happy is the wrong word. Serviceable is better.

So is this your actual objection, and you actually do understand the concept of leader first/Warlord prime or not? If so, this objection is something I kinda understand. If you still don't understand the concept of leader first, we probably just don't have enough common ground to have any real discussion.
It's not my only objection. It's one of many.

Let me phrase it this way. Conceptually, what makes a Battlemaster focused on leadership Manuevers not a 'leader first'?


Honestly, I'm kinda surprised you and ECMO3 are still fighting the concept of leader first/Warlord Prime given you both seemed to have engaged with Undrave's Warlord homebrew in good faith. It may not be your thing and you may never use it but you seemed to get what he was trying to do?
Why surprised? I've said many times I don't think battlemaster manuevers do a great job mechanically for a leader. Too many here have conflated my position on mechanics with my position on concept.

While being able to fulfill the concept due to getting most all of the mechanical tools that are needed the battlemaster's leadership abilities fail to deliver as cohesive of a package around the concept of martial leader that I would like.

What I'm arguing about here is that there are pros and cons to trying to fix this 'problem' via the addition of another class and that maybe this is just a flaw of 5e that no good viable solution exists for. I'd bet you that most involved in this discussion have tried to create their own warlords in years past. I know I have. But that's because I was treating classes as a package of mechanics instead of concept first. So yes, I understand and I'm saying there is another way to think about things.

I haven't looked it over in detail, but Undrave's homebrew seems to be trying to create a leader first/Warlord Prime class that can't be recreated well using current other classes/subclasses. With its Shouts, etc. it seems like a character where you are a better leader than the Battlemaster in exchange for some fighting prowess.
Sure, and I'd love for it to work out for him. Homebrew serves a different purpose than official classes IMO.

It's hard to see where you are actually coming from because half the time you seem to just not acknowledge the leader first concept (which basically means there is no conversation) and then sometimes you do, but you are worried about relative positioning of the Battlemaster leader or balance between casters and martials (which are more interesting things we can talk about once the Elite leader / good warrior concept is acknowledged).
I'm saying that concepts shouldn't really be qualified with 'elite' or 'good'. IMO Concepts just exist independent of their relative 'eliteness' or 'goodness'. Then hybrid concepts are just some mixture of 2 concepts. EK is an example of this. Bladesinger might be as well.

But unlike the EK, the 'Warlord' in any conception isn't a hybrid of leader only and warrior only, he's always a warrior that's a leader.
 

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And we literally cannot know which of us is right, because it would require us to have internal documents from the post-public-playtest phase (when the vast majority of these maneuvers were created, because again, remember that something like half or more of 5e only crystallized in the last 6 months before it went to print!)
Sure, we cannot know 100% for certain. I'm just saying the evidence definitely stacks up more in favor of the Battlemaster being meant to mechanically fulfill the 4e Warlord. To recap, this is because they included 4e Warlord only effects for the 5e Battlemaster and because they haven't created a Warlord class in how many years?

Having to wait until high level to actually get your class fantasy was, as I understood it, one of the specific things 5e was trying to tackle. This, at the very least, would seem to be an admission of partial failure.
I mean it's still slightly better than the champion and still not as bad as a beastmaster ranger. It failed to be the Warlord replacement that 4e fans wanted, but that was inevitable as they still don't actually know what they want. I think the bigger issue is that it failed to be competitve with the warlordy battlemaster for most of the game - which is probably the bigger design issue.

You may not find it compelling, but it rather succinctly communicates what I--and others--have wanted. And it's not unique to this thread. People, at the very least myself, have been saying this for literally years, that the Eldritch Knight is to the Wizard what we see the Battle Master being to the Warlord: a thin, pale shadow, something that, yes, it does contain a seed of the baseline mechanics/concept, but it is far to fundamentally Fighter-y to ACTUALLY do the job. I mean, if the BM contained ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER of the Warlord, you wouldn't even bother suggesting it--but by that same token, the Valor Bard and Inquisitive/Mastermind Rogue contain something of the Warlord while still failing to hit the mark.
So part of our communication problem is that you keep wanting to talk mechanics in response to my talk about concept.

Conceptually a Warlord is a Warrior that leads. So a Fighter with Leader abilities fits that bill. What you actually want isn't anything that's different conceptually. You want a different mechanical representation of that same concept. I get that. But I'm trying to bring up why maybe that isn't actually such a good idea.

To perhaps turn this around: What, exactly, does the Wizard (not its subclasses, just the base class itself) do for its concept that the Eldritch Knight doesn't? The only class features a Wizard had prior to Tasha's were Arcane Recovery, Spell Mastery, and Signature Spells--and both of the last two are literally just "cast more of the spells you like most." All three are about as flavor-packed as boiled oats.
Eldritch Knight is explicitly a hybrid of Fighter and Wizard. So the question as is doesn't make sense. I'll adapt it to what I think you are trying to ask:

Could we remove the Wizard class entirely, change the EK concept as listed for the Wizard concept and would that mechanically fulfill the concept of Wizard (not D&D Wizard, as that's rather a concept unto itself, but just a conceptual Wizard)? Yes - although the weapons and armor and fighting stuff is a bit extraneous to Wizard so it's not a perfect match.

Contrast a similar scenario with Warlord. Suppose there was a Warlord class. Could we remove that class entirely, change the Battlemaster concept as listed for the Warlord concept while simultaneously restricting maneuvers to the Warlordy ones, and would we be able to create a battlemaster that mechanically fulfills the concept of Warlord? Yes - even better than the EK/Wizard, there's nothing mechanically extraneous.

The only other thing that EKs can't do that Wizards can is transcribe spells. Is that really SO dramatically important that it, alone, makes the EK completely and thoroughly disconnected from the Wizard class concept? I...just don't buy it myself. "Spell research" is effectively a non-entity for the Wizard; I've gone on record both here and at GITP that this is actually the biggest reason why people don't feel the Wizard, Warlock, and Sorcerer are sufficiently distinct, because the Wizard literally doesn't do anything to support its concept besides "cast MOAR SPELZ."
The question should be: is this concept representable by these mechanics?

I think you are way to focused on mechanical distinctions. That drives you to make this a mechanics first question instead of a concept first question.

"Conceptual overlap" is already covered by "reduplicated effort." And, as noted, I don't actually see this as REDUCING the Fighter's space at all; I see it as letting the Fighter be focused on, y'know, doing actual Fightery things. Particularly since we're talking about a subclass, which the Fighter can totally keep. Like...adding the Warlord literally does not require that we change ONE THING about the Fighter, so you're inventing a con that doesn't exist. Further, I already covered multiclassing as a con, so....yeah, you're definitely just repeating what I already said there.
Right now the Battlemaster can represent any leader from mediocre to expert. Adding in a 'better leader' takes away at least some of that space. That's a pretty trivial observation.


The bounded accuracy thing, though, is an idea I hadn't covered. What do you mean by this? I had assumed whatever a Warlord did would already be perfectly fine with that, since it's kind of a central design conceit regardless of my feelings on the matter (and regardless of the fact that it is neither particularly bounded, nor particularly about accuracy.)
Whatever the Warlord mechanics end up being, they are another untyped bonus that can stack with every other bonus already present in D&D. This in general is why class bloat using alot of different mechanics for similar effects is bad. Even adding another d8 to accuracy or skill checks could easily break bounded accuracy compared to what bards/rogues/casters can allow.

I'll try to get to the rest later.
 

Okay, so the concept you have in mind is adventuring scholar. That's at least a thing I can see in a D&D adventuring party. I'm just not sure why background/subclass wouldn't be enough to implement that. It's one of the few subclasses that I could have seen being universally applicable had 5e been designed that way. Though, maybe that answers why it can't be implemented as a subclass at this point - because classes do not get interchangeable subclasses
My issue is that the only pure skill user in D&D is a sneaky, thief associated, rogue.

I still feel making Indiana Jones, Sherlock Holmes, Tyrion Lannister, and Dr. Jekyll types rogues is a kludge and "grid filling".
 


My issue is that the only pure skill user in D&D is a sneaky, thief associated, rogue.

I still feel making Indiana Jones, Sherlock Holmes, Tyrion Lannister, and Dr. Jekyll types rogues is a kludge and "grid filling".
I agree. Though Sherlock Holmes in D&D could be envisioned as a Wizard or Artificer just as easily. Indiana Jones could be envisioned as a fighter with a subclass focused on the rest. It's not so much that similar concepts can't be done, they just need attached to a class with combat oriented abilities, because 5e is much more combat than archeologist/detective.
 

I agree. Though Sherlock Holmes in D&D could be envisioned as a Wizard or Artificer just as easily. Indiana Jones could be envisioned as a fighter with a subclass focused on the rest. It's not so much that similar concepts can't be done, they just need attached to a class with combat oriented abilities, because 5e is much more combat than archeologist/detective.
I'm not saying they can't be combat related.

But "SNEAK ATTACK MWAHAHA!" "RAAAAAAAAAFE!!!!1!" and "I attack 3 times" being the only combat options feels off. People accept it. I don't know why.
 

I'm not saying they can't be combat related.

But "SNEAK ATTACK MWAHAHA!" "RAAAAAAAAAFE!!!!1!" and "I attack 3 times" being the only combat options feels off. People accept it. I don't know why.
Hah! Most classes only ever attack twice!

Seriously though. If your not regularly attacking or sneak attacking or casting a spell, what the heck is left for the scholar to do?
 

There is a difference between "strengths and weaknesses" and being flatly GOOD or BAD at things.

A character can, in fact quite easily, be good at every pillar of the game while having strengths and weaknesses. For example, in DW, even a player who consistently rolls very well must almost always choose things to give up, ignore, or leave behind; these are weaknesses, despite the character involved having great ability regardless of the situation at hand.
Just a different viewpoint I guess. I'm more old school and don't mind having an area where you are poor, and in 5e poor means that you just have a harder time doing things, but can still do almost all of them with even a 0 bonus anyway. The vast majority of DCs won't be above 20, and most of those will be 15 or less.
See above. We can extrapolate from what combat things a Fighter must have done in order to merely survive the monster-festooned hellscape that is most D&D worlds. These extrapolations can then reveal non-combat applications of combat-derived skills. Like the reverse of the archetypal ninja, who took non-combat tools (trowels, rakes, etc.) and learned how to use them as deadly weapons.
But all classes need to survive. Why are those fighter specific?
These are also valid, I just don't want to restrict "you're allowed to meaningfully participate in non-combat events" to specifically "martial nobility" types.
For sure. Those were just the first two to come to mind. Mercenaries would need to be good negotiators as part of what they do, so something along those lines could be given to them.
Subclasses should be part of the solution. But they won't be enough on their own.
This I don't agree with. You can easily fit two non-combat abilities in a subclass and that could be sufficient, depending on how good they are.
See above for why I disagree. Also Remarkable Athlete is laughable and Indomitable is a combat feature, not a non-combat one, on top of being hilariously infrequent if it's supposed to have any non-combat use. (Do you really roll saving throws in a purely social encounter all that often? Hell, do you roll them in a purely exploration encounter all that often?)
Remarkable Athlete really should have been expertise in those skills if already proficient, and proficiency if not. As for Indomitable, it depends on how often the DM uses traps, poisons, diseases, saves for things like catching yourself if the wall you are climbing starts crumbling, etc. There could be a great deal of non-combat use for that ability.
How does the bolded NOT help everyone uniformly? Anyone can roll 25, and ONLY casters have ready access to "I give myself advantage on all <pick a stat> checks!"
Casters will generally be proficient in things other than Athletics and lower physical stats. Fighters the opposite. Even without advantage, the Fighters will be hitting DC 25 more often than the casters, who likely can't hit it at all.
 

It's almost like you are trying to argue, "if an EK was supposed to fulfil the concept of Wizard then he wouldn't mechanically do so", which is a sentiment I agree with. But we know that an EK was never supposed to fulfill the concept of Wizard. The Battlemaster was supposed to fulfill the concept of Warlord. That's not the same at all.
Where does it say that?
 

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