TSR TSR (2) Confirms TSR (3)'s Acquisition of Trademark (Updated!)

Jayson Elliot registered the TSR trademark back in 2011 and used it to launch Gygax Magazine along with Ernie and Luke Gygax. The two Gygax's left the company a few years later after Gary Gygax's (co-founder of TSR (1) back in the 1970s) widow, Gail Gygax, forced the closure of Gygax Magazine. Then, earlier this year, TSR (3) swooped in on the TSR trademark, after Jayson Elliot accidentally let it lapse, as TSR (2) confirms:

We have owned the TSR trademark since 2011. Last year, we missed a filing date, and another company registered it, though we are still using it in commerce. While we could win a lawsuit, we frankly don't have the money to litigate. So, we're licensing it back from them.

As a result, there are two companies now using the name TSR. You can tell when it's us because we're the only ones using the new logo.

They're opening a museum in Lake Geneva at the old TSR house, and we wish them success with it, it's important to celebrate the legacy that Gary Gygax created.

Ernie Gygax, formerly of TSR (1) under Gary Gygax, then working with Jayson Elliot as part of TSR (2), is one of the founders of of TSR (3), and confirmed in his (now infamous) interview --

The other TSR is a licensee because [Jayson Elliot] let it lapse. But he had absolutely ... love for the game and the products. There was no reason to say 'oh you've screwed up, oh it's all ours, ha ha ha ha!' Instead, Justin [LaNasa] came to him and said ... we love that you're doing Top Secret things, we have a much broader goal for the whole thing. But there's no reason for you to stop or even have any troubles. Justin said, I'll take care of the paperwork, you just give me $10 a year, and you put out all this love for old school gaming that you can. And we appreciate that you were there to try and pick up things, and you produced Gygax Magazine, for in its time that you're also working on a game that you love to play ... because Top Secret was Jayson's love, as a young man.

TSR (2), still run by Jayson Elliot, publishes Top Secret, and is not connected to TSR (3) other than now having to license it’s own name from them. TSR (3) has also registered the trademark to Star Frontiers, a game owned by and still currently sold by D&D-owner WotC.

In other news the GYGAX trademark appears to have lapsed.

UPDATE! TSR (2) has decided NOT to license its own name from TSR (3):

Update to our earlier tweet - we will NOT be licensing anything from the new company claiming rights to the TSR logos. We are not working with them in any fashion.

 

[GreyLord]

Yeah, I doubt that WotC cares about the TSR name at all. However, if these clowns try to do something with Star Frontiers, the Cease & Desist Orders will probably come on over with no danger of PR fallout.

Oh, I think they care.

However, this burst out going into the weekend.

What needs to be taken into account are costs. Is the cost returns worth the expenses? Is the effort worth the returns?

That needs some smart minds at Hasbro among accounting, PR, and legal to figure that out.

It may be that this will flame itself out without any other effort needed to.

Things like this happen, and things can turn out better for Hasbro if the cards are played right.

For example...

I have Heroquest on pre/order when it gets released by Hasbro sometime in the near future.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Boot Hill is something of a surprise -- Westerns haven't been hot for decades, and the game was never a particular success. But both Gamma World and Boot Hill got explicit crossover rules in the 1E DMG, so maybe they're considered D&D settings by someone at WotC at the time.

The Red Dead Revolver/Redemption video games are very popular, though.

 

[Parmandur]

Boot Hill is something of a surprise -- Westerns haven't been hot for decades. But both Gamma World and Boot Hill got explicit crossover rules in the 1E DMG, so maybe they're considered D&D settings to someone at WotC at the time.

It is certainly the Wildcard in that trio, but it's still for sale, which means WotC is camping out on longterm trademark possibilities: I could see a Weird West book for 5E.

I don't recall who posted here about playing in a Gamma World and Star Frontier game at conventions (maybe @darjr ?), but apparently they were pretty robust takes.

 

[Parmandur]

Gangbusters, Top Secret and Metamorphosis Alpha were all allowed to leave. Top Secret was almost certainly more successful than Boot Hill was in their respective heydays. (If you've got Gamma World, though, you don't really want or need Metamorphosis Alpha, although I'm glad to see Ward is selling new MA stuff through Goodman.)

My understanding of the original Boot Hill is that is mostly actuarial tables to calculate risks during gunfights, with the rest being left to improv, which sounds fun to my weird brain.

 

[darjr]

Gangbusters, Top Secret and Metamorphosis Alpha were all allowed to leave. Top Secret was almost certainly more successful than Boot Hill was in their respective heydays. (If you've got Gamma World, though, you don't really want or need Metamorphosis Alpha, although I'm glad to see Ward is selling new MA stuff through Goodman.)

And the new big book of the starship Warden

The Starship Warden

An unraveled dream of new worlds turned nightmare; lost in the deep beyonds, the Warden is your home, your world, your end.

www.kickstarter.com

 

[Black Dougal]

I'm going with this is going to flame itself out, of course, WoTC acting flames it out quicker but I think 3SR is going to do itself in. A lot of talent wants nothing to do with them at this point, conventions seem to be distancing themselves, Ernie is doubling down and Jason will only get worse. The IP issues, the "edgy" PR, icing on the cake. I'm sure one day soon 3SR will be playing the martyr.

Crazytown. My gaming group is starting a half-hour early tonight to talk about current events related to this. Popcorn time. Then we're off to find the Machine of Lum the Mad.

 

[pemerton]

Way back near the start of this thread, some of us were speculating about whether Wizards would feel it was worth the publicity hit from trying to enforce the copyrights TSR(3) is infringing.

The size of that hit is shrinking rapidly and may well have gone negative by this point.

(I also wonder if they could come to some arrangement with TSR(2) where TSR(2) gives up all claim to the trademark, and in return Wizards allows TSR(2) to continue using the trademark, and then Wizards files suit against TSR(3) for the trademark as well. I don't know if that's even possible, legally speaking, but it would certainly be helpful for Wizards's image.)

My tentative guess is that WotC's interests are better served by (i) enforcing their copyright claims against TSR3, to the extent that TSR3 is violating WotC's copyrights, and (ii) letting sleeping dogs lie as far as trading under the unregistered TSR mark is concerned.

 

[Parmandur]

Oh, I think they care.

However, this burst out going into the weekend.

What needs to be taken into account are costs. Is the cost returns worth the expenses? Is the effort worth the returns?

That needs some smart minds at Hasbro among accounting, PR, and legal to figure that out.

It may be that this will flame itself out without any other effort needed to.

Things like this happen, and things can turn out better for Hasbro if the cards are played right.

For example...

I have Heroquest on pre/order when it gets released by Hasbro sometime in the near future.

When it comes to defending IP, Hasbro tends to be zealous: tolerant of fan work, bit this is commercial exploitation of the property of a multi-billion dollar corporation. They have lawyers on retainer whose job it is to go after this, so the costs are low and accounted for already.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

And the new big book of the starship Warden

The Starship Warden

An unraveled dream of new worlds turned nightmare; lost in the deep beyonds, the Warden is your home, your world, your end.

www.kickstarter.com

I didn't realize he was switching over to Troll Lords. Either way, MA is on track to have more support than Gamma World under TSR ever got.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm going with this is going to flame itself out, of course, WoTC acting flames it out quicker but I think 3SR is going to do itself in. A lot of talent wants nothing to do with them at this point, conventions seem to be distancing themselves, Ernie is doubling down and Jason will only get worse. The IP issues, the "edgy" PR, icing on the cake. I'm sure one day soon 3SR will be playing the martyr.

The crazy thing is that if they just published stuff under Swords & Wizardry or OSRIC, depending on what Ernie prefers for rulesets, they could have definitely moved books -- probably a fair amount of them. They just had to not run their mouths or get creative with their interpretations of the law.