D&D 5E Why Don't We Simplify 5e?

[overgeeked]

How would you distinguish, in terms of mechanics, with players having to deal with exploration pillar stuff vs a skip button? Or is this 5e specific, where you can't create a game where torches matter when PCs have the light cantrip, for example?

I mostly play 5E now so that's where my head is at. But similar stuff was in earlier editions, though not nearly as prevalent or cheap. Things like light, dancing lights, create water, continual light, create food and water, goodberry, Leomund's tiny hut, etc have been in the game since AD&D. Though the particulars of level and precise effect have changed over time. The big difference of course is cantrips and rituals. Making lots of things that used to cost actual resources now be infinitely castable or at worst only taking a little time but no real meaningful resources.

Like, what is the desired playstyle and what is getting in the way of that?

Something where resources matter. Something in-between counting every arrow and things like food, shelter, water, comfortable sleep, etc are basically guaranteed at almost all times barring the DM going out of their way to prevent them. If there were a cost to rituals, that would be great. If light and dancing lights were 1st-level spells, that would be great. Increase their duration and/or provide some other benefit to compensate, of course. It's not that they're OP, it's that they make exploration boring. Same with ranger automatically finding their way and never getting lost and outlander always finding food and water. They take a lot of the fun out of exploration. Or feats like alert meaning you're never surprised. That's lame.

I'm not all that interested in simulation play. It's more trouble than it's worth, to me. Having to make meaningful decisions with limited resources is more interesting to me. Picking between burning a spell slot to skip something or having to play it out and risk some loss. Letting players just skip entire sections of content without resource cost or risk is just dull.

A couple things I can think of:
• Simulation: you can't fight/explore/think when you are hungry and tired, being in the dark is scary and you might panic, etc, so how do we sort of model this mechanically? I never really liked the concept of a short rest until I saw the way they are explained in Into the Odd, where HP is more about catching your breath and getting a drink of water so that you can do more demanding physical activity--relateable! Solution for 5e: you need to consume some food water in order to take a short rest?

Sure, that could work...if not for the outlander background. Even something like pulling outlander back to expertise or advantage on foraging survival checks would be good. Then a failed check means either a waste of significant resources (like several hours) or an encounter. Then change short rests to work that way. That would be a move in the right direction, sure.

• Timer: especially in a dungeon, the idea is that the amount of light you have available sort of determines how long you can spend in a dark environment, and that when you start to run out of light it's a cue that you need to get out of there. Between darkvision and the light cantrip (and familliars etc), I don't see how to recreate this danger in 5e. It would need to be magical darkness or something. Better to create some other form of a timer
Same thing with exploration--how many days can you travel away from a settlement before you start to starve. Again, in 5e, probably the only way to do this is to choose a really harsh environment.

Darkvision isn't a substitute for a light source. Darkvision gives you disadvantage on perception checks in darkness. So there's a little play there. But yeah, with light and dancing lights cantrips, you basically can't have darkness be an issue. Which is a real bummer. Having monsters go for the torchbearer is a fun extra to add to an encounter. Well, with rangers and outlanders, you can go an infinite distance from a settlement before worrying about starving. Add in a cleric and/or a druid and you're double covered.

 

[mrpopstar]

I mostly play 5E now so that's where my head is at. But similar stuff was in earlier editions, though not nearly as prevalent or cheap. Things like light, dancing lights, create water, continual light, create food and water, goodberry, Leomund's tiny hut, etc have been in the game since AD&D. Though the particulars of level and precise effect have changed over time. The big difference of course is cantrips and rituals. Making lots of things that used to cost actual resources now be infinitely castable or at worst only taking a little time but no real meaningful resources.

Something where resources matter. Something in-between counting every arrow and things like food, shelter, water, comfortable sleep, etc are basically guaranteed at almost all times barring the DM going out of their way to prevent them. If there were a cost to rituals, that would be great. If light and dancing lights were 1st-level spells, that would be great. Increase their duration and/or provide some other benefit to compensate, of course. It's not that they're OP, it's that they make exploration boring. Same with ranger automatically finding their way and never getting lost and outlander always finding food and water. They take a lot of the fun out of exploration. Or feats like alert meaning you're never surprised. That's lame.

I'm not all that interested in simulation play. It's more trouble than it's worth, to me. Having to make meaningful decisions with limited resources is more interesting to me. Picking between burning a spell slot to skip something or having to play it out and risk some loss. Letting players just skip entire sections of content without resource cost or risk is just dull.

Sure, that could work...if not for the outlander background. Even something like pulling outlander back to expertise or advantage on foraging survival checks would be good. Then a failed check means either a waste of significant resources (like several hours) or an encounter. Then change short rests to work that way. That would be a move in the right direction, sure.

Darkvision isn't a substitute for a light source. Darkvision gives you disadvantage on perception checks in darkness. So there's a little play there. But yeah, with light and dancing lights cantrips, you basically can't have darkness be an issue. Which is a real bummer. Having monsters go for the torchbearer is a fun extra to add to an encounter. Well, with rangers and outlanders, you can go an infinite distance from a settlement before worrying about starving. Add in a cleric and/or a druid and you're double covered.

Light functions exactly like a torch, which isn't all that spectacular if there's only one lit. Definitely should require concentration, for sure, but you can still have monsters go after whoever's carrying the object shedding light!


Dancing lights is tempered by concentration, but I agree it should've been a leveled spell. It's essentially four light cantrips in one, and at ridiculous range.

Funny enough I've not seen much player interest in continual flame.


Create or destroy water is only useful if you have an open container nearby that can hold at least 2.5 gallons of water, assuming you have the average party of 5 looking to fill their waterskins (and a waterskin only carries half a day's water). As the Dungeon Master, you have control over the containers available in any given environment.

GOODBERRY IS PROBLEMATIC AND I WILL ALL CAPS THAT ALL DAY. It should be a higher level.

If the wizard wants to choose leomund's tiny hut for themselves, they can, but I don't think I've ever included it in a found spellbook (not because it's a skip I'm trying to avoid but because it's just a boring spell lol). -- I've never seen a bard take it.

Rangers are overpowered in their favored terrain, which I'm not thrilled about but not mad about. If your exploration pillar features some solid hex crawl, they're not always in their favored terrain, so there's that.

Completely agree with your thoughts regarding the outlander background. It's tempered by the fact that the feature really only applies in wilderness travel (as opposed to dungeon crawling), but the auto-win is meh. -- I've never seen anyone take it outside of public play, though (which is funny considering it's largely useless in that arena).

We don't use feats so Alert hasn't been an issue, but I agree with your assessment as I read it the first time and disliked it thoroughly.

--

It's still crazy to me that a group would stock up on these capabilities with intention just to skip through exploration. And to what end? Are they obsessed with social interaction? Heh

 

[overgeeked]

It's still crazy to me that a group would stock up on these capabilities with intention just to skip through exploration. And to what end? Are they obsessed with social interaction? Heh

Nope. Just incredibly risk adverse. It's so utterly trivial to skip the exploration pillar in 5E that most players do. There's no upside to playing through exploration (besides, you know...exploring things), only downsides and risks. So they take the skip buttons.

 

[Greg K]

Solution for 5e: you need to consume some food water in order to take a short rest?

Warrior needs food, badly!

 

[mrpopstar]

Nope. Just incredibly risk adverse. It's so utterly trivial to skip the exploration pillar in 5E that most players do. There's no upside to playing through exploration (besides, you know...exploring things), only downsides and risks. So they take the skip buttons.

Risk averse because their characters have died horrible deaths by your design, or risk averse just because? LOL

 

[Malmuria]

Light functions exactly like a torch, which isn't all that spectacular if there's only one lit. Definitely should require concentration, for sure, but you can still have monsters go after whoever's carrying the object shedding light!

You can cast light on an object and then place that object away from you. For example, you can cast light on a coin and then toss the coin somewhere where you are trying to see, or cast light at on the end of a rope and then lower the rope, etc. It also doesn't give off any smoke or fumes, not that anyone takes that into account.

Create or destroy water is only useful if you have an open container nearby that can hold at least 2.5 gallons of water, assuming you have the average party of 5 looking to fill their waterskins (and a waterskin only carries half a day's water). As the Dungeon Master, you have control over the containers available in any given environment.

There are ways around this on both "sides"...but, now in search of an exploration pillar we've created somewhat adversarial metagaming, where the dm is trying to force survival exploration and the players are trying to outwit the dm. That doesn't feel like 'exploration' to me.

It's still crazy to me that a group would stock up on these capabilities with intention just to skip through exploration. And to what end? Are they obsessed with social interaction? Heh

again we can ask what is the desired style of play and what is getting in the way of that style. For me, the fun of this stuff is this: if combat is a tactics mini-game, exploration can be a strategy mini-game, where you are balancing whatever objectives you have to whatever resources you have available. In that way, osr dungeon crawling can create a fun gameplay loop where you have a more or less clear default objective (explore, get treasure), a defined amount of resources, and just enough randomness to create variety and uncertainty. Returning to the Black Hack, here is the basic encounter table for each turn of dungeon exploration:

Encounter Roll (d6)
1. Treasure or PC advantage
2. Signs of nearby life
3. Signs of farway life
4. Reduce light Ud by 1 step
5. Random Character overcome with stress and cannot take actions during turn
6. All characters must consume food/water, roll ration Ud

 

[Malmuria]

Warrior needs food, badly!

halflings require second breakfast

 

[mrpopstar]

You can cast light on an object and then place that object away from you. For example, you can cast light on a coin and then toss the coin somewhere where you are trying to see, or cast light at on the end of a rope and then lower the rope, etc. It also doesn't give off any smoke or fumes, not that anyone takes that into account.

This is true.

There are ways around this on both "sides"...but, now in search of an exploration pillar we've created somewhat adversarial metagaming, where the dm is trying to force survival exploration and the players are trying to outwit the dm. That doesn't feel like 'exploration' to me.

LOL Actually, it's something that has come up accidentally a couple times.

Which amazing Dungeon Master remembers to stock their dungeons with 10 gallon containers after blocking all the exits? Not me!

again we can ask what is the desired style of play and what is getting in the way of that style. For me, the fun of this stuff is this: if combat is a tactics mini-game, exploration can be a strategy mini-game, where you are balancing whatever objectives you have to whatever resources you have available. In that way, osr dungeon crawling can create a fun gameplay loop where you have a more or less clear default objective (explore, get treasure), a defined amount of resources, and just enough randomness to create variety and uncertainty. Returning to the Black Hack, here is the basic encounter table for each turn of dungeon exploration:

Encounter Roll (d6)
1. Treasure or PC advantage
2. Signs of nearby life
3. Signs of farway life
4. Reduce light Ud by 1 step
5. Random Character overcome with stress and cannot take actions during turn
6. All characters must consume food/water, roll ration Ud

I don't think it's an adversarial metagame for the Dungeon Master to intentionally map out the challenges characters will face, taking into account their resources. That being said, this approach works just as well!

 

[overgeeked]

Risk averse because their characters have died horrible deaths by your design, or risk averse just because? LOL

Risk adverse from the jump. Even players I've never played with before are so risk adverse that their characters would be better suited playing a nice, relaxing game of Papers & Paychecks rather than going out adventuring.

 

[mrpopstar]

Risk adverse from the jump. Even players I've never played with before are so risk adverse that their characters would be better suited playing a nice, relaxing game of Papers & Paychecks rather than going out adventuring.